This is just a nice picture I had of a past student of mine offering his first Mass in Columbus, Ohio. Just to be clear!
The very first thing Archbishop Bergoglio did after the publishing of Summorum Pontificum of Pope Benedict XVI was to promote the Traditional Latin Mass, the Extraordinary Form, in his Archdiocese, immediately directing that a chapel, to start with, be set up for this end.
Just in case you were wondering.
Update: Father Finigan has apologized to Rorate Caeli because of geographical presumptions he made. However, he makes the same mistake as so many others, blaming the Archbishop for an incorrect celebration of the TLM by a priest, all for the sake of accuracy. I find it amazing that people know for a fact, somehow, that the Archbishop specifically instructed the priest to make changes to the rubrics, or neglected to reprimand him based on sure knowledge that he knew of everything of how the Mass was celebrated in detail.
I do know some things for certain:
- Archbishop Bergoglio did his best to implement Summorum Pontificum within days of it’s promulgation, faster than anyone in the world that I know about.
- Even in the worst case scenario, that he actually commanded the mockery of the faithful (I really find it hard to write such rubbish), the newly elected Pontiff is not to have such past mistakes held over his head. To do so runs against the tradition of the Church, which frees even an excommunicated individual who has been elected to the See of Rome from any penalties under which he may have been burdened. To hold any such thing of the past against a new Pope is not only against tradition, but it is to strike at the Church. Really. Not. Good.
- People say that they want to be honest and say what’s what. I think it is not up to such a standard to hold the misapplication of rubrics wrought by a priest against an Archbishop who was himself trying to do something good. It is not good to strike at the Lord’s anointed, especially now that he is Pope, and this by way of a priest.
Accompany me, Father George David Byers, S.S.L., S.T.D., as I begin life as a Catholic Priest-Hermit by choice. Holy Souls Hermitage is dedicated to the sanctification of my fellow priests, bishops, deacons & seminarians going through the purgatory of this life or the next. Prayer and sacrifice go up, of course, for both Benedict XVI and the next Successor of Saint Peter. 
Thank you, Pater, your promptitude is from Above.
Excellent! Very Excellent! And he has my middle name…Francis, well Frances is my name.
Wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Um…can I get a name for the chapel, and the Mass schedule?
Everyone else has been saying there are no TLMs in Buenos Aires.
I’ll ask.
Father,
everywhere else is reporting the very opposite (?)
I’m hearing everywhere that SP was not implemented in Buenos Aires!
Yes Father–details would be of help. I’ve mostly seen words of gloom and doom on the liturgical end of things–Lost as a Jesuit in Holy Week being about to taken to a new level. I did see one bit about the Institute of the Good Shepherd being invited in, but without any details or links. I pray that he can turn a Jesuit single-mindedness to reform
Thank you, Holy Spirit. I had been concentrating on cardinals in their 60′s, but I had studied Pope Francis before the last conclave; therefore, I know who he was as soon as the name was read.
He is obviously a very spiritual man. Here are two of his statements while a cardinal in Argentina.
Read what Pope Francis said when a bill to redefine marriage was proposed in Argentina:
“Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”
He has also said:
“At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”
Right, Bill. But those “traditionalists” who are upset with him call this weak. I don’t think so.
Just thinking… We, “traditionalists” (actually, just catholics), must offer our suport to the Pope, no matter what he think’s or have done about TLM and Summorum Pontificum before. Let’s show that we are not their enemies… Let’s show that in the pews os TLMs, Francisco will find good soldiers for the good of the Church.
Luciano: EXACTLY RIGHT!!! Best comment of the day.
Thank you for posting this. They are words of comfort.
That photo is from Holy Family Columbus, OH (God’s Favourite Parish)
Thomas: And that’s my student from the Josephinum, whom I sure you know well!!! His First Mass.
Thomas: And that’s my student from the Josephinum, whom I sure you know well!!!
Thank you for that information, Father. I was wondering indeed! I am elated!
Deo gratias.
Where did you get this information? Everything I’ve read says there are no “approved” Latin Masses in Argentina. If it is true, there are apparently a few in the area who would like to know about them.
Is there corroboration for this? I really, REALLY hope this is true but I’ve heard nothing but the opposite. Can someone please provide some fact checking on this?
[[...]]
Indeed a very exciting piece of information, that. I agree though that details would be nice; also a source for this information? I’m very interested.
Off hand, there is a Chartes-Notre Dame type pilgrimage that a few miles out with the bishop of the military ordinariate. And others. Use google! Things start small, but then grow, don’t they. We might criticize small efforts, but that is absolutely not the way to go. Anything small can grow. Our Lord had a parable about that!
Where did you hear this? Argentinian traditionalists who know Cdl Bergoglio have said the opposite. I would love to believe what you’ve posted–could you provide more information?
Amy: That’s what someone told me. I think the idea is that the Archbishop offered some guidelines at the time of Summorum Pontificum. Of course, some say that there shouldn’t be guidelines because Summorum Pontificum is clear. But from that kind of diatribe, I can why there would be a need for some guidelines. I haven’t seen them. I don’t live in Argentina. But what I don’t like is that kind of diatribe against a newly elected Pontiff. The one who told me what he did isn’t railing one way or the other. He just said what he thinks is correct information. If that information is lacking, it errs, however, on the side of respect and good faith. I think that’s where everyone would want to be, that is, with an attitude of respect and good faith.
Maestro: See my response to Amy.
Chrisne: See my response to Amy.
Sit Nomen Domini Benedictum.
Thank you, Father, for this post!
I cannot say that today’s election was joyful for me, and I fear for the future of Tradition and a return to the Hermaneutic of Rupture.
Sent from my iPhone
Martin: Do your best.
Father, we are doing our best I think. I know that some of the folks at Rorate Caeli are over the top in their anger and are thus uncharitable; we need to pray for them as well of course.
I would suggest though, that the SSPX made a grave calculation when postponing their entrance into the Church. There is a seminary in Argentina, and I do not fault him for being impatient with the SSPX. That’s sad, because we need them just as much as they need the Church
https://maps.google.com.ar/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=206090314166478485845.00046ba60f7b2a9ea8e81&ie=UTF8&t=m&ll=-34.234512%2C-62.929687&spn=25.318365%2C21.972656&z=4&source=embed a list of parishes with TLM I was sent though Rorate Caeli isn’t convinced
[[[ edit... No evidence during Mass is there?... I don't wan't to turn this into a kill the Pope post... ]]]
Confirmation of this would go a long way towards settling people down. I was initially happy at his election when I read his statements on marriage, etc. but I have been more concerned as the day has worn on.
One thing which does speak highly in his favor is that Fr. Fessio, who founded the Adoremus – Society for the Renewal of the Sacred Liturgy speaks highly of him. Specifically, he stated when asked his thoughts: “You’ll love him. The other Jesuits hate him. I’m ecstatic.”
With that kind of endorsement from someone in Fr. Fessio, SJ who is obviously faithful and orthodox, and also who deeply cares about the Liturgy, I am hopeful that Pope Francis will continue reforms in the area of the Liturgy with the path that Pope Benedict started.
Thank you, Father, for your post. I’d be very interested to have more details on this as it seems to be contrary to the information provided by a traditionalist very familiar with Bergoglio and the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires.
JLM
You can find below an article from 2007 regarding the traditional mass being offered in Buenos Aires, when Pope Francis was the titular Archbishop. It’s in Spanish, but, well, there is Google Translator.
http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2007/09/17/sociedad/s-03001.htm
Stever C: Because some or most or all of those may be SSPX, and therefore don’t count for the Archdiocese.
There is actually a TLM in Buenos Aires.
In the SSPX Chapel.
Pedro: Right. Plenty of SSPX everywhere, no more abundantly than in my own home state of Minnesota as well. Saint Michael chapels everywhere. But there may be some good will on the part of the Archdiocese in Argentina as well, right? I wonder how many parishes just do the TLM, but don’t make a big thing of it for fear of this kind of onslaught. For instance, Artur found what I originally mentioned. But I’ll write a post about this.
Matthew Roth: I don’t buy that. Seems to me that one of the two greatest obstacles to SSPX reach an agreement with the Holy See in last months remains in some guys in the Curia (the other one is the undermining sedevacantism of some guys within Society). If Pope Francis can fix this, maybe the door’s will be open again.
Name the chapel…
Father, perhaps this article should be pulled. It is causing confusion, and doubt w/out substantiation…
God Bless
John: Name the parish… or does it have to be a chapel? At any rate, probably Saint Michael the Archangel is named somewhere. You might want to take a look at the other comments. For instance: http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2007/09/17/sociedad/s-03001.htm Just a thought.
Dean: Perhaps you should take a look at some of the other comments. For instance: http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2007/09/17/sociedad/s-03001.htm Just a thought.
ALL: It really does look like Archbishop Bergoglio did what he could. The article that was found — http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2007/09/17/sociedad/s-03001.htm — is obviously written from a third party perspective and is somewhat inimical, which, however, lends the facts given credence, right?
From the tone of what we have read in Rorate Caeli, I really have to wonder if such bitterness was vomited on his Excellency right away. And, in that case, I don’t doubt that he would have been willing to set them up as the greatest examples of the Extraordinary Form.
Whatever, the case about how things developed, he certainly tried to do the right thing from the beginning.
I think that a good strategy is not to vomit bitterness at the new Roman Pontiff, but rather to use the provisions of Summorum Pontificum. If no provision is made for those who ask, bring the matter to Ecclesia Dei. Perhaps they can supply FSSP priests.
At any rate, it is never good to vomit bitterness on anyone, much less the one from whom you want something.
The comments box moderation queue of this post is clogged with comments of sede vacantists saying “Told you so!” or with those who want to prove with this or that that Supreme Pontiff is from hell. You’ve really come to the wrong place for that.
SE CELEBRO POR PRIMERA VEZ EN EL PAIS DESDE QUE EL PAPA LA AUTORIZO
Regresó la misa en latín, con mujeres cubiertas por mantillas
Un centenar de fieles conocedores de la vieja liturgia estuvieron ayer en San Miguel Arcángel.
Sergio Rubin
Cuatro décadas después de que la misa en latín con el sacerdote oficiando de cara al altar fuese reemplazada por el oficio en la lengua de cada país y de frente a los fieles, el antiguo modo de celebrarla fue rehabilitado ayer en una iglesia de Buenos Aires. Fue ante un centenar de fieles deseosos de participar de la forma tradicional.
La celebración se produjo 48 horas después de que el papa Benedicto XVI firmara el decreto (motu proprio) que libera esa modalidad. Hasta el viernes, la misa en latín requería la autorización del obispo del lugar, trámite que ya no será necesario. Desde ahora, ante un pedido de los fieles, el sacerdote deberá acceder.
Con todo, el arzobispo de Buenos Aires, cardenal Jorge Bergoglio, dispuso una celebración fija en su jurisdicción para ofrecerles a los fieles porteños un lugar específico y esquivar el problema de que muchos sacerdotes no saben oficiarla.
La parroquia es San Miguel Arcángel, en el microcentro. Su párroco, Ricardo Dotro, es experto en liturgia. Tuvo que desempolvar la última versión del antiguo misal, de 1962, disponer el altar, poner seis velas en lugar de dos y conseguir un organista que conociera los viejos cánticos.
“In nómine Patris, et Filii et Spiritus Sancti”, dijo Dotro pasadas las 10, al recitar la señal de la cruz con que comenzó el oficio. Fieles mayoritariamente adultos y ancianos, aunque también algunos jóvenes, varias mujeres con mantilla, y casi todos con misal, lo seguían con unción. Las mujeres tenían, además, polleras bastante largas. Llamaba la atención una familia con tres nenas, todas con mantilla.
Muchos de los asistentes parecían muy conocedores de la antigua liturgia. Incluso, no faltaron algunos que deslizaron cierta molestia porque la celebración no fue, a su juicio, totalmente por el modo antiguo y se mezcló con elementos actuales.
La comunión fue recibida de rodillas, junto al altar y en la boca. No hubo saludo de paz, ni oración de los fieles, ni procesión de ofrendas.”Este modo de oficiar la misa enriquece mucho la celebración porque tiene en cuenta los elementos de una antigua tradición litúrgica”, dijo al salir Fabián, de 45 años. A su vez, Carolina, de 21 años, estudiante de filosofía, consideró que este modo “me eleva espiritualmente mucho más”.
El padre Dotro no hizo en su homilía ninguna mención al modo en que la celebraba. Luego, pidió a los periodistas que no dijeran que es la misa tridentina, sino “el modo extraordinario del rito romano”. Así buscó acotar la polémica que suscitó su rehabilitación.
Holy Souls Hermitage:
Thank you for your link. The article published in one of the main Argentinian newspapers, says that Cardinal Bergoglio made arrangements to provide a place for the celebration of the Extraordinary Form, within 48hrs of the release of Benedict’s motu propio.
It is embarrasing to read the poison that has been published in other traditionalist websites!
Gonzalo: I was in Lourdes at the time as a chaplain of the sanctuaries. We were able to begin official sanctuary Masses in the Extraordinary Form long before the starting time of September 14. I thought we were jumping the gun a bit, but now I see that Archbishop Bergoglio beat us to it. Hah!
I believe that it is St. Joseph, Protector of the Universal Church, who can bring peace to our hearts. Pope Francis will be installed on St. Joseph’s Feastday. This must be a sign that Good St. Joseph is going to be involved in a most active way in the days ahead. St. Joseph, pray for Pope Francis and the Universal Church.
Robert Moynihan wrote today, “According to the latest letter from Moynihan (Inside the Vatican), “Cardinal Bergoglio is hostile toward the Traditional Mass.” God help us.
Gods Will be done. We have a new Vicar of Christ. Let us unite in faith and prayer for our new Pope “Pope Francis.”
Its a good thing you got that translation, because the link to the article has disappeared suddenly. I cannot help but wonder why.
Jason: It still works: http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2007/09/17/sociedad/s-03001.htm
Roseanne: Perhaps Moynihan was reading Rorate Caeli.
In 2007 when Pope Francis was Archbishop he arranged for the Extraordinary form mass be available ‘within 48 hours of Summorum Pontificum being released’
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fedant.clarin.com%2Fdiario%2F2007%2F09%2F17%2Fsociedad%2Fs-03001.htm
http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2007/09/17/sociedad/s-03001.htm
xoxo: But some can’t read!
[[... edit ... Amy: you should read some of the other comments and some of the other posts... -- Father George ]]
Makes you want to run out and learn Latin….huh ?
yes it is a common language used in the U.S.A. and all English speaking countrys….everyone knows how to speak Latin …..
Timothy: I think 96% of English is… Latin! If you don’t know Latin, you don’t know history, and you certainly don’t know anything about the documents of the Church, which are routinely and sometimes nefariously translated. People say that when they learn Latin, they are learning English, or whatever other language for the first time.
The map link only shows one location within the immediate BA metro area (La Plata is a different diocese). It’s this one http://panoramacatolico.info/articulo/misa-tridentina-en-san-justo-los-domingos-a-las-18-hs-desde-el-24-de-enero-de-2010
But it’s also in a different diocese (San Justo). It does not appear by the map that there is one in the Archdiocese of BA. This is merely observation. If someone has an actual location for a TLM in the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires, I’d like to hear about it.
After reading a number of negative comments about Pope Francis on various websites, two things came to mind:
1. I recall reading in Warren H. Carroll’s 5 volume A History of Christendom that there once was a Pope whom the bishops felt had too much power and authority. They opposed him on everything. After that Pope was no longer in power (I can’t remember if he died or was forced to resign), the leader of the Bishops who fought the Pope’s authority and power was elected Pope. Once in office, this former Bishop did a 180 and continued to defend the authority and the power of the Pope.
2. If one was to judge St. Peter on his actions prior to the Ressurection, no one would have forseen that the man who denied Christ 3 times would have been handed the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.
cj: Why not drop by Saint Michael the Archangel parish cited by the secular newspaper linked to many times in this comment section of the post.
Also, if there is nothing right where you are in the Archdiocese, that is, in your parish, ask about it. There are provisions for this in Summorum Pontificum. Go for it. Do something. If you don’t ask, you won’t get it. If you don’t press for it, you won’t get it. I bet that if there wasn’t anything in the entire Archdiocese, Ecclesia Dei would ask the FSSP to go and start something there. If you ask for it, know that you also have to support it. I don’t say this so much to you, of course, but to everyone reading this post.
(1) Being there and
(2) asking and
(3) insisting with respect and
(4) supporting the initiative all important points.
Also, just to say, I have found over the decades that no matter how diligent Mass time and place aggregators are, they are always different from each other, either because of lack of diligence in making updates or because no one bothers to inform them or they don’t bother to be informed. When I would offer the TLM, I would just do it.
When I was offering the TLM in various places in Australia on a regular basis for those who had taken the initiative to start up something for the Extraordinary Form, having pretty constant contact with Ecclesia Dei, etc., at the time, I think only one of the places I was offering Mass, in a Cathedral, was listed.
P.S. I should add that when I was the TLM Chaplain in Lourdes for two years, starting that endeavor after decades, there was a battle at every turn. The Mass was there, but you just had to know it. It was not advertised. It was the bishop’s initiative to start things up before 14 September 2007, but that initiative did not include publicizing Mass times. Even without publicity, we once had 7000 some pilgrims in the lower Basilica of Pius X for solemn High Mass on 15 August. Such may be the case for various reasons from parish to parish in the Archdiocese. I don’t know. It happens.
Yes, I know. I took this photo on the same day.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LU8FKs7XMNo/Tf-zX6gV1YI/AAAAAAAAABE/Xy0gRxH37ME/s1600/1stmass.jpg
Great picture, Thomas.
Also: All: My good friend, His Hermeneuticalness, whom I got to know in Lourdes, as this great article:
http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2013/03/old-rite-mass-in-argentina.html
Actually, I don’t live in Argentina.
I’d love to check their website, but I haven’t found one. If someone could provide one, that’d be great.
To clarify, for San Miguel.
I was just going through some of the forums in the blogosphere which picked up this post. It seems that I’m a modernist! Perhaps the mention of the newspaper article providing substantiation bothered them.
article Geremia links to actually confirms the OP. But it is not good news. Shortly after the promulgation of Summorum Pontificum, Cardinal Bergoglio did arrange for a Traditional Mass to be said regularly in Buenos Aires, in the cathedral no less (the crypt). However, he assigned as chaplain a priest who hated tradition and kept innovating and doing “mistakes.” People stopped going and so this TLM no longer exists.
One example of his innovations: he would follow the calendar of the Ordinary Form, therefore doing the readings of the Ordinary Form in the TLM (Responsorial Psalm instead of Gradual and all). The readings were said by lay people.
I’m sure not one of us would attend such a Mass.
I’m still reading the article. For those who understand Spanish: http://pagina-catolica.blogspot.com.ar/2010/09/el-plan-del-cardenal-primado.html
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3457679.msg33878108.html#msg33878108
SOS: In other words, the TLM was immediately made available by the Archbishop after 7-7-07, faster than any other place in the world. Way cool!
I’m sure it wasn’t the intent of the Archbishop, now Pope Francis, to have the priest kick the people in the face. This is not the only time I’ve seen such shenanigans. It’s all too sad. We must pray for our priests, and be very, very good to them. Kill them with kindness. Bowl them over with kindness. Be so kind and generous that he will be beholden to you. Win him over. And keep those who are bitter at bay. They don’t help, at all.
Great!
Too bad you didn’t read how attendance fell from 100 to a handful and then the mass which was only once a month was cancelled.
TOO COOL! Way to kill w/kindness! Bowl them over! Our prayers are answered! No more TLM!
SOS: You see, this is exactly the problem. Blaming the problems of individual priests on a bishop who tried to something good is not the way to go. And no, I’m not saying that the problems of an individual priest are TOO COOL. What you do is write a respectful letter concerning the provisions of Summorum Pontificum and insist in a friendly manner. All the way to Ecclesia Dei if necessary. Document things. But don’t be bitter. That doesn’t do anything, and only hurts. Really.
http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.ie/2013/03/an-apology-to-rorate-caeli-and.html?m=1
Some facts here. [ "facts" -- I don't understand your point. Father Finigan is apologizing because of geographical presumptions he made. However, he makes the same mistake as so many others, blaming the Archbishop for an incorrect celebration of the TLM by a priest. So, are you saying that you know as a fact that the Archbishop specifically instructed the priest to make changes to the rubrics? Also, the point I'm trying to make is that in the worst case scenario, the newly elected Pontiff is not to have such past mistakes held over his head. To do so runs against the tradition of the Church, which frees even excommunicated individuals from the penalties under which they have been burdened when they are elected to the See of Rome. To hold any such thing of the past against a new Pope is not only against tradition, but it is to strike at the Church. Really. Not. Good. People say that they want to be honest and say what's what. I think it is not up to such a standard to hold the misapplication of rubrics wrought by a priest against an Archbishop who was himself trying to do something good. It is not good to strike at the Lord's anointed.]
That’s my parish…and the torchbearer? My youngest son, Max…
Facts as to the implementation or promotion of SP/UE in the Diocese of Buenos Aires. The matter was the subject of your post. The subject can’t be even referred to without some facts. Thank you, Father. God bless and protect Our Holy Father.
[The original post: "The very first thing Archbishop Bergoglio did after the publishing of Summorum Pontificum of Pope Benedict XVI was to promote the Traditional Latin Mass, the Extraordinary Form, in his Archdiocese, immediately directing that a chapel, to start with, be set up for this end. Just in case you were wondering." Now, that's a fact. No one disagrees with that. What you point to concerns what is now the case, which has a complicated history which may not have anything to do with the Archbishop. What you point to also concerns what a priest did, not what the Archbishop did. I think it is important to be clear. I don't think it is warranted for certain people in the blogosphere to bash the present Holy Father.]
I’ll just leave this here, from http://pagina-catolica.blogspot.com/2011/06/aniversario-doloroso.html …
“Esa misma tarde el Cardenal Bergoglio mandó suspender la celebración prevista para el 28 de Octubre de 2007, Solemnidad de Cristo Rey.
En Noviembre de ese año, el entonces párroco informó a la feligresía que no se podría continuar con las celebraciones por mandato del Arzobispo de Buenos Aires. Prohibición que continúa hasta el día de hoy.”
The Google Translate output is readable and plain enough.
[Let's just say that that's true, even without documentation. Is that because people stopped attending because the priest was not following the rubrics? Did the priest tell the Archbishop that almost no one was showing up and ask that it be cancelled? Did the Archbishop go along with this? I mean, I don't know. It's surely a possible scenario, isn't it?]
Every Pope has an area of emphasis that he has committed much time to prior to election. Pope Benedict’s was the sacred liturgy. That doesn’t mean he was incompetent in other areas. It seems that Pope Francis doesn’t emphasize the sacred liturgy as Benedict did. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about it or is incompetent in it. He is awesome in the area of dealing with the poor and evangelizing, making sure those in his care have access to the sacraments. Also, Blessed Pius IX was thought to be “liberal” before his election, but turned out to stay Peter’s course during his pontificate, doing what was best for the Church. I have total confidence that with the fervent prayer of all the faithful for this Pope that he will do God’s will and we will have many great surprises from him. We should all calm down and pray. Enough of the “Woe is me” routine already. Be patient and pray. This Pope is humble and he will listen to God humbly.
Father, I apologize for double posting…
That said, in the interest of disclosure, I had posted on The Blog Which Shall Not Be Named that, while my heart had been heavy, that will not preclude me from singing Axios and “Many Years!” for our Holy Father Francis.
Thanks for all your rational sensible commentary Father. A minor quibble, English is not 96% Latin. It’s core word stock is Germanic in origin, but with very heavy borrowings from Latin and French. If one were to read early English texts out loud they would sound closer to German or one of the Nordic languages as opposed to Latin. (I speak from having learned Anglo-Saxon in graduate school.) Now one of the reasons people who study Latin end up understanding more about English is twofold: 1) English grammar is no longer taught the way it once was while grammar is an essential part of learning Latin and 2) people who study Latin end up knowing the roots, prefixes, and suffixes that come to English from our Latin loan words. And, of course, since English and Latin are both Indo-European languages, there are certainly words that are highly similar without ever having been borrowed. For example, the word for father is similar across the IE spectrum. Enough elementary linguistics for the evening….
But… Does German use any Latin?
It gets complicated with the constant movements of peoples as well. There is such flux.
More facts, then! Obviously the implementation or promotion of SP/UE in Beunos Aires diocese over the past few years involves much more than the initial setting up of a monthly Mass with the wrong lectionary, etc. in one church/chapel. I presume that is just one small part of the whole story of the Diocese. Sadly, there are a multitude of Dioceses where the traditional Mass is in real terms suppressed and priests or laity who try to have it offered, persecuted. God, give the Faithful the courage to persevere.
Yes, I took modules in Old English and Middle English as part of a primary degree back in the 1980s, and Beowulf is not easy to decipher! Unfortunately, I was too late to get Latin as part of my second level education (great loss) and only learned incidental phrases via my legal education, and through parts of the Holy Mass. I strongly encouraged my son to do Latin in secondary school, and he did for first three years (though he hasn’t attended much since the beginning of second year due to his suffering from ME).
You stated, “To do so runs against the tradition of the Church, which frees even an excommunicated individual who has been elected to the See of Rome from any penalties under which he may have been burdened.” I have never heard of this! PLEASE point me in the direction of where to find more information on this tradition; it would greatly help me calm some family members down! Thank you!
Excuse me, sir. But I live in Buenos Aires. This is not an accurate information. We go to a SSPX chapel, because there´s no other alternative.
I repeat: THERE´S NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE.
What worries me a little wee bit is that if the good cardinal cannot make one priest obey him, how is he going to reform the curia???
[Hello marie. It seems that, for you, one priest's disobedience to the rubrics and the Cardinal is condemned as not being able to control any priest. So, any priest anywhere who is at fault for anything and the bishop is to be condemned as being unfit for office. All bishops are omniscient, right? And then you transfer that to His Holiness, so that any misbehavior of anyone in the curia must be due to the Pope's ineptitude instead of their betrayal. I wonder what you think of Jesus and Judas. Jesus only had twelve apostles to worry about.]
But as we know and pray the Holy Spirit will assist him. [And that makes your Pope bashing all better, right? Wrong.]
Argent: I wasn’t talking about the present, was I. Instead, it was about the Archbishop trying to implement Summorum Pontificum quickly. What I am hearing is that the priest who did this did not do a good job of it, and things fell apart. But that concerns the priest. A suggestion: Use the provisions of Summorum Pontificum to get a Mass in the Archdiocese. Insist on it. Bring it to Ecclesia Dei. You should not have to go to the SSPX.
What about the priest who apparently tried to offer the TLM correctly and was directly (and illegally) ordered to stop offering it by the Archbishop himself. Was that just a made up story? [Do you mean not only Alfredo Sáenz, S.J., but other priests? There can be many reasons why any priest might be stopped from saying any form of Mass. I don't know the details of the actual circumstances of the standing of all those priests, nor, I suggest, do you or anyone else who does not have direct access to the archives and who was not a first hand witness of any conversations between the Archbishop and these others, either individually or as a group. This is a moot point.] What about the Archbishop (illegally) approaching the concept as though he was “allowing” a mass when in fact the law laid down by Benedict was that it did not need to be “allowed” (you keep saying he “promoted it”). Are all of these just made up? Lies? [This begs knowledge of an official document issued by the Archbishop and, I suggest, knowledge of the circumstances of all those the Archbishop knew to be involved, even potentially. Perhaps the intent would become clear, then, of protecting the original intent of the Motu proprio. Bishops have the right to facilitate the implementation of any universal law. Not being the Archbishop, I cannot say that I have the overseeing perspective of the Archbishop himself at that time and in that place and in those circumstances, nor, I suggest, do you or anyone else on the ground. There are many things to consider.] What about the fact that out of hundreds [That's an unknown. Even with the most popular priests among more traditional Catholics, the beginning half dozen Masses sport many people who go out of interest, or were pushed by friends and relatives, sometimes just to get a good start for that Mass in that location. But then many go back to their ordinary form Masses closer to home, or to any TLM that is closer to home, etc. It is extremely rare to have numbers stay anywhere near the same, although that can and does happen, depending on the circumstances, right?] attending the badly celebrated mass, word certainly would have gotten to the Archbishop especially when it got down to only a few people attending, especially if it was as important to him as you say it was. [TLMers are people too! Like anyone else, very few will complain. Those few who do, will mostly complain only to the priest, sometimes for some of them, in an unhelpful manner. Very few of these few would have taken things further, and it could very well be that the remaining few did not bother for the reason that you provide next:] What about the fact that the Archbishop turning a blind eye to this, would be completely consistent with the many charismatic masses and liturgical aberrations and pluralistic, pan-religious worship services that he was known to condone and participate in? [Generally speaking, people think that bishops and even the Pope are omniscient: Of course they know all the aberrations because they just do! Well, no. It's not that way at all. Instead, people can fall into bitterness and blame anything and everything on someone in higher authority and despair of saying anything to that authority. And sometimes it's thought to be easier just to go to the other TLM just down the road. As has been pointed out, the Archdiocese is extremely tiny geographically. It has been pointed out that there are TLMs right in the city or very close to the city, though not in the Archdiocese. I suggest that many left because they didn't like the way the Mass was celebrated, because they knew of another place where it was celebrated better. The rest may have just followed suit instead of trying to bring things further.] Could you please do some digging and address these issues before you accuse concerned Catholics of detraction.. because you left these points out of your post and we’re all very confused about who to believe. If it turns out that these reports from people who live in Buenos Aires were lies, then so be it, but that must be determined first. [I think you've got things backwards there. Right? Otherwise, I could say some very ugly things about you, and then just glibly add that if these these are proven to be lies, then so be it. And then I could just add more ugly things, and so on. Get it? There are very ugly comments about Pope Francis because of accusations about his time as Archbishop. And that crosses another line, about which I think I'll have to write another post. I'll just say here that it is just so wrong to condemn a newly elected Supreme Pontiff over such things, even if true, in his past, which begs the question as to why this is really being done.]
By all means, we are all seeking the truth. But there’s no reason to pretend this is all clear when in fact it’s still quite foggy. [There's no reason to condemn a newly elected Supreme Pontiff over these things, regardless or fogginess or clarity. What's the point? But, as I say, I think I will have to write a separate post about that.]
Erin: Sounds like I will have to write a post on that…
Wow, I feel a little like I just walked into Matthew 12!
After watching our new Holy Father this morning on EWTN at the meeting with the Cardinals, I am loving this man. Like others here, I have read some horrifying things that have been posted about him since his election, and I feel these folks really have it wrong.
He seems very genuine and kind, and he even mentioned the devil this morning! I love the fact that he’s not afraid to talk about the devil. It’s way too early to panic. I think we are going to be very happy with this Pope. He certainly has my prayers.
I think the hyperventilating about the TLM issues is premature. There is much to be concerned about in our Holy Church, and that is just one issue among many. We need a holy Pope, a humble Pope, and a strong Pope. I think God, in His goodness, has provided us with exactly what we need, even though we don’t necessarily deserve it.
The naysayers and detractors are going to be surprised by Pope Francis, in my opinion.
We are thrilled with our new Holy Father Francesco. He needs prayers not criticism. Even St Peter was not perfect as he denied Our Lord three times and then he repented.
Let us pray hard for him and give him our filial support!
VIVA IL PAPA!
I might be there on the Inauguration Mass on 19 May if nothing unexpected happens.
Hi Father,
German has indeed borrowed words from Latin, both from the regions of (what we now call) Germany once under Roman control as well as from the Church. However, the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes who invaded England did not come from the parts that had been under Roman control. So the language that they spoke and brought to the British Isles probably had few Latin loan words in it. However, that changed once they became Christian. If you read Anglo-Saxon texts, you can usually spot the words that were borrowed from Latin.
If anyone ever wants to learn the full etymology of a word ( it’s origins and its first appearance in printed English) the OED is invaluable. [Fun fact for Tolkien fans, the term middle earth comes from an Anglo Saxon word which means just that.] And, if anyone wants to read a lovely Anglo-Saxon Christian poem, I recommend “The Phoenix.” “The Phoenix” was originally a Latin poem that was beautifully re-written with a very obvious Anglo-Saxon identity.
Just found some interesting information about our new Holy Father in the latest letter from Robert Moynihan. He looks at the Holy Father’s first day in office with careful and thoughtful scrutiny. For people still having vapors, I suggest checking it out….
Krista: I wonder if you could explain how it is that Chaucer, with all his case endings, and Shakespeare, with his diverse turns of phrase, are so incredibly diverse, with the latter being born only 114 years after the former died. Were they both forcing the language in a certain direction, being rather artistic in ways that would never have been heard on the street?
Moynihan’s article was already mentioned somewhere in the comments of, I think, this post. He throws out the comment that Cardinal Bergoglio is hostile toward the TLM, and promises in a comment that his next letter will try to explain this. I am disappointed with this. Even if he has something way more substantial than Steven in the recent comments of this post, I really think that we need to look at Pope Francis with fresh eyes, not jaded. But, as I say, I think I shall have to write a post about that.
[... edit ... Argent: I would ask that you read all the comments of this post, and the update of the post. Also, I suggest, as I have said umpteen times, to use the provisions of Summorum Pontificum to have the TLM offered in the Archdiocese. You have heard of that document, have you not? The purpose of this post is not to try to bash Pope Francis with things you perceive about him as Archbishop. ... ]
But… I know and believe that when you receive a mision in our Church, you receive a special grace. I hope and pray that he is faithful to the grace.
Wasn’t it the Norman-Welsh royalty and aristocracy that advanced the use of French as the language of royalty, government, administration, law, etc. in England? Middle English has very little French in it compared to Modern English.
Of course, printing was critical in the development of a standardised Early Modern English in the late 15th century.
Lynda: “printing” — of course!
Thank you so much for this clarification. In a rush to condem our new Pope for anything shows a complete lack of charity and does not speak well of the TLM sector in our Church. Perhaps these people need to spend some time reading about what else contributes to being a faithful Catholic! “Truth in Charity” always.
Father, perhaps the answer to much of this may come from the fact that His Holiness has long ties to the Byzantine liturgy? I suspect that relative indifference, rather than hostility, explains why he was not an ardent promoter of the TLM during his term as Ordinary in Buenos Aires. Regardless, this article gives me great hope.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/For-the-first-time-since-the-Great-Schism,-ecumenical-patriarch-to-attend-pope‘s-inaugural-Mass-27408.html
Thank you Father!
Only noticed your blog now when I voted for wtprs:)
I was so shocked by the vicious and extra meanspirited attitude of some ‘Catholic’ blogs towards our new pope that I reacted extra strongly on a couple of great priests’ blogs here in the UK who have done so much to promote the Tridentine Mass and who are being very faithful towards our new pope Francis as well. However, as you say it is utterly unfair that these priests are having to deal with the fallout, and yesterday I requested both priests to delete my intemperate comments.
Thank God for our new pope!
Father,
The best explanation I can give is that English is a language that has continually simplified itself. There are a lot of reasons for this, but they’re mostly too technical to explain well. The best example can be seen in the tendency to drop an ending off a word as seen in going to goin’. Plus, a language as it’s spoken changes more rapidly than its written counterpart (a modern exception being the way text messaging is shortening phrases and changing words to short abbreviations and phoenetic spelling).
In Chaucer’s day, there were still some remnants of an older linguistic structure while most of those are absent in Shakespeare. And Shakespeare’s English is very different from that of Jane Austen, to say nothing of the present day. In general, though, English has abandoned grammatical gender and most of the cases still found in other European languages. As such, it is entirely dependent on word order. Unlike, say, German, English speakers really won’t put a verb at the end of a sentence. It has to be the prime mover of the sentence. A professor once told our class that in English the verb is the command and control center of the sentence.
As to Robert Moynihan, I was not referring to his initial letter about the Holy Father, but the follow-up which was far better. Sadly, I’ve been noticing that folks over at Rorate keep flipping out. Personally I believe that the Church has enough enemies without its members sniping at each other over minute details such as garments, etc. I would only be concerned if we saw stuff coming out of the Vatican which is completely contradictory to the faith. And since that’s not likely to happen unless it were overrun by modern day barbarians, I would think time would be better spent praying than mouthing off, but that’s just me.
Hope you and Laudie have a nice weekend!
A disturbance in the force there is.