Somehow, people just so want to avoid discussing the common sense point of this post, that if the visions continue, the upcoming judgment must be negative.
The video not allowed on many Medjugorje sites…
Update: Click to enlarge: The Holy See sees all!
Update…. Just in case you think your comments have not been seen, this came in four days later (17 July)…
I’m still on retreat for another while, but I couldn’t resist putting this up.
Although I’m on retreat, it happens that I was speaking at length to a Lebanese nun, though not by bilocation, though not on the phone either. And, no, she’s not on Holy Souls Mountain! It happens. [O.K. So, I see that some of the pro-Medjugorje crowd on their web-sites have zero sense of humor. Yikes! I've been totally condemned for mentioning this wonderful nun. Has no one thought I was not on Holy Souls Mountain at the time? Honestly! Take some deep breaths, people! The hate vented against this wonderful nun is just sickening. It reminds me of the terrible lies and disobedience to the bishop there: It's all sickening.]
Anyway, she said that Pope Benedict XVI instituted a new feast called “Our Lady of Peace”, which, mind you, I haven’t googled, nor do I intend to do so. That takes place, if I remember correctly, on 25 June or roundabouts. [I find it interesting that the pro-Medjugorje sites condemning me for this post concentrate on this point of this post, which is not the main point of this post. I just mention this bit about the "feast" because that is what she said. Rip that to shreds if you want. But condemning her and then me and this blog just because I reported this as part of the conversation, which is neither here nor there regarding the main point of this post is rather to miss the main point of this post below, is it not?]
The instant I heard that I thought that that means that the decision about Medjugorje will be negative [but that is not the reason why I think the decision will be negative. For that, scroll down a bit... And this negative reaction, which is not the main point of this post, can be based on other things, like knowing that a decision will be made this year, a decision which must be negative for the very fact that the so-called visions are ongoing, right? Scroll down for more on that...], and that this is a way to demonstrate that our Holy Father and the Church don’t hate our Lady. And… really… they love Jesus’ Immaculate Mother. If it was to be a positive decision, it seems that one would wait for saying something about such a memorial of our Lady.
Then she said that the decision about Medjugorje is scheduled for this coming November, 2012. We knew it would be before the end of the year. This is more precise.
I bounced this off a most reasonable, faithful friend, and he said that this absolutely means without any doubt whatsoever that the decision about Medjugorje will be negative. [Dear pro-Medjugorje crowd, read the next bit in bold, which is the main point of this post. This is the common sense bit. This is why this post was so popular on the internet. Not because of a Lebanese nun. Because of common sense. You can't argue with common sense:] He said no decision can be made positively about any apparitions while they are ongoing. Since the apparitions are continuous, daily, non-stop, this means that the only possible decision will be that the apparitions are not consonant with anything supernatural, or something even more negative than that, but nothing positive, except maybe to say some nice things about conversions that have taken place there, etc., trying to save any good that could have taken place just because so many people were involved from all over the world.
I’m sure there will be much to do about saying positive things, and that will be helpful. But it seems to me that the decision must be negative about the fact of apparitions taking place.
Did I mention that, whatever about Medjugorje, I love Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe…
O.K. Back to my retreat…
Accompany me, Father George David Byers, S.S.L., S.T.D., as I begin life as a Catholic Priest-Hermit by choice. Holy Souls Hermitage is dedicated to the sanctification of my fellow priests, bishops, deacons & seminarians going through the purgatory of this life or the next. Prayer and sacrifice go up, of course, for both Benedict XVI and the next Successor of Saint Peter. 
Hey Father,
I too believe that it will be negative. After all, two Bishops of that diocese have stated from the beginning of the apparitions that it is not of supernatural origins. It is quite sad, I believe that many people will leave the Church when this comes out and in some regards, some Priests who are big promoters of it will lose their vocations, seminarians will leave the seminary, ect. I say that because last year when I was a Seminarian at St. Charles Borromeo Seminary in Philadelphia, PA; I met many Seminarians who were militant supports of the Medjugorje visions and at one point I heard an argument had become so intense between a supporter and someone against it, that a physical altercation nearly happened.
At my Church, there is a large contingency of people who believe in Medjugorje and they have all the bumper stickers on their cards like (Mej – this is my time)… Anyways. they were putting their materials in Church and making it look like the Church supported the seers, our pastor removed the materials time and time again and finally had to confront these individuals and many of them left the Church. Some went to another Catholic Church and I think a few of them went to the Episcopalian and Anglican Church. Very sad.
Thanks for the update.
God Bless,
Michael
Very interesting, Father, thank you for posting! About the possibility of a new Feast Day, do you know if June 25 is in any way significant within the Medjugorje context?
And blessings for the rest of the retreat.
I have no idea, Jakob…
Hello Michael… Yikes!
I know a woman who loves Lourdes, who volunteers there. Very humble service to the sick and dying.
She gives talks on Lourdes in parishes. That is, she talks on Lourdes, not Fatima, not Guadalupe — though she loves those — but she also does not talk about… Medjugorje.
Well, time and again.. and again and again… supporters of Medjugorje go to her talks and condemn her for not speaking about Medjugorje and then storm out.
Yikes!
I am most interested by this information. The feast day is very welcome news and fine idea indeed, if true; was there reason to think she would have information that was not available through the regular news sources? I could not find corroboration, though I found there are various places where a memorial of Our Lady of Peace is celebrated locally on various different dates (nothing to do with Medj of course). I agree with you that if this is made a universal feast that it points to a negative judgement on Medjugorje, while obviously giving a trustworthy positive sign to the faithful of Our Lady’s love for them.
Michael Bowes, I also think there is danger of some losing their vocations and some (I fear many) leaving the Church, as you say some have already left the Church because of Medjugorje. I have been part of discussions about Medjugorje where the people (good people) got truly upset with me for pointing out the problems and not agreeing with them about that. Anyone who has had a few such conversations with ordinary sincere Catholics realizes the depth of the Medjugorje problem. As one of the members of the Medjugorje commission said, basing one’s faith on apparitions is immature. We going to see it is also considerably dangerous.
A wonderful pillar of the Catholic community here is devoted to Medjugorje for many years, and recently he was very happy because he persuaded a relative who hadn’t really been practicing the Faith to go to Medjugorje on a European vacation. He was worried by my explanations of the likelihood of a negative judgement soon. This friend’s faith will survive (in these conversations I always urge, trust the Church’s ability to discern this, whatever the Holy Father decides, go with that), but the danger of that more vulnerable family member feeling like a sucker is great.
In response to Jakob, August 5 is the “Birthday of Our Lady” (on an entirely different date than the Church’s own Nativity of Our Lady) according to the Medjugorje apparitions, and they have a big youth festival at that time. This is all in disobedience to the local bishop who has tried to ask them not to have liturgies of the birthday of Our Lady on a different day than the Church does, etc etc. My theory is August 25 may allow them to transfer their enthusiasm for Our Lady to a totally licit celebration within the same month.
That’s all I know.
Doesn’t it make more sense not to rule on anything until the apparitions end?
This is encouraging news. I find it interesting that as we draw closer and closer to the Year of Faith so many signs of contradiction proposed for our Church, ie; medj, SSPX, LCWR, etc., seem to be coming to some kind of head or culmination. The more I watch the proponents of these groups struggle to justify their tenable positions with false arguments usurping the teachings of VCII and asking us to acknowledge their fruits and ignore their disobedience, the more I love our Church and the clearer it’s teaching becomes. Just as medj advocates have always asked us to ignore their disobedience and only consider their ‘fruits’, I recently notice radical SSPX advocates using the same argument of the fruits of their packed chapels and seminaries to justify their disobedience as well.
The more I consider these similarities the less apprehensive or disturbed I become about more division within our Church. The fact of the matter is the division and disobedience already exist. The only thing that would truly change is the pretense of false unity. I’m no longer sure which is a greater sword of sorrow, living under a false pretense of unity or finally recognizing and addressing the reality of division and disobedience? Yes, I’m very much looking forward to the Year of Faith and the blessings it promises for our Church and each of us individually. I hope it will be a resurrection of many.
[34] And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted; [35] And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed. [Luke 2:35]
I’m expecting a negative decision, too. I think we should (I should) start praying about the consequences it will have on people who really got into it.
Theology of Revelation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX63UdDV3ZY
And a Wikipedia article that references Church documents and Patristic writings, though it is Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_revelation
Here’s my take on it. The Vatican’s decision, using common sense, will uphold the previous bishops’ conclusions, but will also echo in some way what Bishop Schoenborn had to say about the need to pastorally minister to those who go to Medjugorje. It will be left up to the bishop to decide as to whether or not he wants to continue to allow the pilgrimages.
I says pay attention to the messages coming from apparition sites and not the messengers. Discernment is called for here.
elizdelphi said, “I also think there is danger of some losing their vocations and some (I fear many) leaving the Church, as you say some have already left the Church because of Medjugorje.”
St. John of the Cross said of those who leave the Church, ” If they were of the truth, they never would have left, but since they never really were of the truth, they couldn’t remain.”
Our Lady of Peace was established well before anyone ever heard of Medjugorje.
“Our Lady of Peace is the patroness of the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary religious order, founded by Peter Coudrin in Paris during the French Revolution. When the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary established the Catholic Church in Hawaii, they consecrated the Hawaiian Islands under the protection of Our Lady of Peace. They erected the first Roman Catholic church in Hawaii to her. Today, the Cathedral of Our Lady of Peace in Honolulu is the oldest Roman Catholic cathedral in continuous use in the United States.”
I havent read any of the pro or con Medjugorje books, so this tidbit may be in one or more of them. But, if you go to the medjugorje sites that have all the messages and searchable. You’ll find the gospa has in some 30 years of messages only mentioned the rosary between 10-20 times. Which stands out as being very strange. However, at Medj. from what I hear devotion to the rosary is what everyone does.
June1 — That would make sense unless there is enough there to make a negative decision. A negative decision can always be given, even right from the beginning. If something is wrong, it is wrong.
This is all conjecture and personal opinion. There are millions who have bet positively impacted by Medjugorje and a few dozen who are arrayed against it. Go figure …
Richard, you are right to say that private revelations are not about the personal sanctity of the messenger, but about the messages. And it is the messages which will be decided upon.
Thanks for that, Denise! Semper, semper fi!
The way is narrow, Paul, is it not?
Faith is not a democracy.
Praise God for bringing good out of such circumstances!
There are 5 feast days for Our Lady of Peace and none of them are on June 25th. Rather, they are on Jan 17, Jan 24, May 6, July 8, And Nov 21. Who is this Lebanese nun and what qualifies her statements as true?
Paul, Must be my bad memory about June, as I admitted in the post, right?
The thing about common sense is that it doesn’t rest on the authority of any Lebanese nun (with all due respect to all Lebanese nuns!).
Again, if a judgment is going to be made before the “messages” come to an end, that judgment has to be negative, right?
My family and I experienced conversion before and during two trips to Medjugorge in 1989 and 1990. If the decision is negative, why wait to announce the conclusion? Thousands of people may be wasting time, grace and money between now and November.
This is what St. John of the Cross, the acknowledged spiritual master in these matters, has to say about the dangers which visionaries are open to, in his “Dark Night of the Soul” (2.2:3) …
“… the devil causes many to believe in vain visions and false prophecies; and strives to make them presume that God and the saints are speaking with them; and they often trust their own fancy. And the devil is also accustomed, in this state, to fill them with presumption and pride, so that they become attracted by vanity and arrogance, and allow themselves to be seen engaging in outward acts which appear holy, such as raptures and other manifestations. Thus they become bold with God, and lose holy fear, which is the key and the custodian of all the virtues; and in some of these souls so many are the falsehoods and deceits which tend to multiply, and so inveterate do they grow, that it is very doubtful if such souls will return to the pure road of virtue and true spirituality.”
Speaking of visions in general, and in particular of the danger of desiring them, he writes in “The Ascent of Mount Carmel” (2.11:8 and 12):
8. “… So it has happened to many incautious and ignorant souls, who rely on these things to such an extent that many of them have found it hard to return to God in purity of faith; and many have been unable to return, so securely has the devil rooted himself in them; for which reason it is well to resist and reject them all. For, by the rejection of evil visions, the errors of the devil are avoided, and by the rejection of good visions no hindrance is offered to faith and the spirit harvests the fruit of them.”
12. “It is clear, then, that these sensual apprehensions and visions cannot be a means to union, since they bear no proportion to God … And so the devil rejoices greatly when a soul desires to receive revelations, and when he sees it inclined to them, for he has then a great occasion and opportunity to insinuate errors and, in so far as he is able, to derogate from faith; for, as I have said, he renders the soul that desires them very gross, and at times even leads it into many temptations and unseemly ways.”
I will be happy to hear Holy Father’s decision and pronouncement on this Medjugorje affair. Friends go ballistic if anyone dares to suggest that Our Lady has not been appearing there and speaking every day. Some have made multiple pilgrimages and claim their relatives were converted back to the Faith by their being on the trip Our Lady was a woman (saint) of few words when she was alive, and I know of no other approved apparition through the centuries when she went on and on and on for so long. A real mother speaks possibly repeats , to make a point, to make requests. Then it is up to us to respond. I know of two priests who supposedly received their vocation from visiting the apparition sites, and both have now left. Very very sad. Once years ago one of the see-ers was at a local Catholic convention and urging everyone to meet her in a certain hotel room because Our Lady was going to appear at 6 pm that evening. That was the final straw for me. I pray that those who have made a cottage industry of promoting these apparitions, pilgrimages to the site, selling books and CDs, etc. will continue to follow the Holy Father and the Church’s wise guidance, if the judgment is negative. If it is positive, no private revelation is necessary for our salvation. When Our Lady’s requests at Fatima are fulfilled, we will see peace in the world.
Fr., The statement that an apparition cannot not be approved while it is happening is simply false. One. Day of the apparitions in Venezuela where approved while the apparitions continued.
Sorry, but I disagree. I don’t see the connection between a new feast “Our Lady of Peace” and the verdict on Medjugorje. It would be pretty difficult to come out against all of the Cardinals i.e. Schoenborn and others who have promoted Medjugorje. It would be difficult to overlook over 400 documented healings by the Franciscans at St. James. It would be difficult to report negatively about all of the conversions and priestly vocations that have come via Medjugorje. The Fruits of Medjugorje are overwhelming. My guess is they will declare it a Marian Site without making a final judgement until the apparitions end. The dirty little secret is when the apparitions end, there won’t be a need for the church to make a judgement.
Lots of pastoral preparations for that even within the Holy See. For instance, I remember when, some years ago now, Vatican Radio gave the mic to a fellow who was exstatic in saying THE REASON for converting was because Mary was appearing in Medjugorje. One would hope that conversion had to do primarily with Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium of the Church, the Living Body of Christ, the Sacraments, the one family of faith… But none of this was mentioned… There is much to learn about the faith, the glory of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church…
helgothjb … Think about it… Not very logical to do that, is it? So, what to do? It’s always a good idea to turn to the magisterium of the Church, which is now providing guidelines to the bishops because there was not in any way a perfect policy in every diocese or region of the world.
Hello John. Not difficult at all. You have to understand that the Holy Father is interested in being a Father of the Family of Faith. He is not someone who is politically correct or full of fear, especially of His Eminence, Cardinal Schoenborn!!!
If I were you, I would study some ecclesiology.
I notice I made errors regarding dates etc in my comments… well never mind me.
I am wondering what the Franciscans who are at St James and other priests who are there and who are always on the altar at the Masses will do if the decision is negative! Will there be a schism?
With every ounce of my being I have tried to find something about Medjugorge visionaries that I believed in. I went there, partly humanitarian mission and partly a pilgrimage. I even saw the sun swirling in the sky. I even attended one of Ivan’s “visions” that took place in his newly built chapel located on his beautifully manicured ground on which stood his newly built huge home where he charged people who came to visit Medjugorje – to stay at his house. Still; I could not. I felt like a betrayer as I was the only one in my group who felt this way.
I think that of the many “visions” that has taken place, “Mary” didn’t say anything of “substance”, other than blessing everyone and thanking everyone and calling everyone to prayer and penance. Mostly everything was pretty much generalities.
June 25 is the anniversary date of the Medjugorje apparitions. This June 25, 2012 was the 31st anniversary of Our Lady’s apparitions. http://www.medjugorje.hr/en/news/31st-anniversary-of-our-lady%E2%80%99s-apparitions-celebrated,4129.html
Hello Margie. If this is, then, another established date for such a memorial of Our Lady of Peace, this would underline what was said in the original post, no?
If you took a close look at Ivan’s house, you would see that it is mainly a dormitory for visitors to Medjugorje with he and his wife and 4 children living in an apartment in the complex. Ivan supports his family by having pilgrims stay at his house. The beautiful chapel is where “Our Lady” appears, seems appropriate to me. Someone tells us THE REASON for converting is because Mary is appearing in Medjugorje. What if they said the reason for converting was because of Fatima? If they were converted because of a miracle, who are we to say that isn’t a good reason. [No one converts if it is not because of Christ and His Church. Mary would be the last one to put herself apart from Christ and the Church.] The important point is that they converted. [If they converted to Christ and His Church, regardless of Medjugorje.] Many people have been converted because of Medjugorje. Why would you think: “that conversion has to do primarily with Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium of the Church, the Living Body of Christ, the Sacraments, the one family of faith” None of those things converted St. Paul. [Wow.... So........ time to take up the Acts of the Apostles. Why did Paul convert? Because of the Living Body of Christ, which was in view of all these other things.] I believe it also says “Man’s ways are not necessarily God’s way” [Mary's way is Christ's way, and Christ's way is the way of the Church. Or are you starting up "The Church of Medjugorje"? I wan't to be Catholic.] You say [Someone else now...] “Mary didn’t say anything of substance” Seems like pray, go to confession monthly, fast, receive the sacraments are a repeat of what the church teaches.[How many thousands of times, or hundreds of thousands of times... What is that?] The Church didn’t initally believe in Fatima or Lourdes. [Really? I mean, in a way that one can compare to Medjugorje? They are not comparable. Momentary thinking about it -- which is prudent -- sure is different than decades of constant reprimands from the local bishops. I mean, honestly.... we need to be honest about this.] If we look around at what is going on in the world and the evil that abounds, it’s not hard to see that Medjugorje is yet another call from God to convert. [Evil in the world is not a proof in favor of Medjugorje.]
I know so little about Medjugorje, may be because I have always but my interest on Marian apparitions approved by the church.
Much as in I believe( I stand to be corrected if this a wrong belief) that Mary appears/comes to so many people in so many places, this is her motherly role. But all will not be approved by the church, much as in Mary is Mother of the Church.
We believe and trust that the steps taken by the Church to approve some apparitions are inspired by Christ Himself for the good of His Father’s glory and the church.
I was curious to Google about how apparitions are approved and I was glad to read this :
“The Church does not require belief in any apparition or other private revelation. However, she does exercise her maternal judgment for the protection of the faithful in declaring some apparitions to be inauthentic, others to be “worthy of belief.” Investigations into alleged apparitions are rigorous. Those which have been judged worthy of belief, and devotions related to them have been encouraged by the truth. Each has miracles associated with it which are unexplainable by the best scientists in the world, as testimony to its authenticity.”
“For instance, I remember when, some years ago now, Vatican Radio gave the mic to a fellow who was exstatic in saying THE REASON for converting was because Mary was appearing in
Medjugorje. One would hope that conversion had to do primarily with Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium of the Church, the Living Body of Christ, the Sacraments, the one family of faith… But none of this was mentioned…”
This reminds me of a young woman involved in the Veronica Luikens/Bayside cult. She spoke of going on a bus pilgrimage to the site and finding a lost wedding ring. She gave credit, not to Our Lady, or the Saints, nor Jesus, but to a deceased tea-leaf fortune-telling old lady! “By their fruits you will know them.”
I feel I need to point out a few things. In light of all the comments that have been made on this post, there is something that really stands out for me, really two things that stand out.
1. Cardinal Schonborn – The Cardinal is used by the supporters of the visions as a verifiable proof of sorts that the Church is in support of Medjugorje. This is not proof, in fact, if you pay attention to what Bishop Peric of the Diocese of Mostar (Medjugorje) has to say, then you will see that not only is Cardinal Schonborn causing disunity, he is also acting in disrespect to Bishop Peric who did not authorize the Cardinal to come in and make an uproar. Take a moment and read this article with an open mind – http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/medjugorje_bishop_says_cardinal_schnborns_visit_brings_greater_suffering_to_his_diocese/
2. A person who commented on the blog earlier, I believe John stated about the 400 healing’s (supposedly to have taken place) and all the good fruits of the Franciscans, Lets talk about these good Franciscans.. how great have they actually been?
The Franciscan spiritual director for the seers, Tomislav Vlašić who wrote down all the visions and led everything in Medjugorje had sex with a nun, sent her away to Germany to be hidden. Fr. Vlasic caused many scandals in his time in Medjugorje and was dismissed and later founded a separate community called “Queen of Peace, Totally Yours”. He is now laicized and is running a new age movement that dabbles in astrology.
Read more on the verdict from the CDF: http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2008/09/medjugorje-canonical-status-of-fr.html
In conclusion. Please don’t try and tell me about all the good fruits, when the good doesn’t out weigh the bad. One of the visionaries resides in the US and married a former super model and lives in a mansion. Nearly all the visionaries own the hotels and stores in the Medjurgorje area and profit immensely from it.
Lastly, considering that Pope Benedict XVI was the priest in the Vatican at the time that received the ‘love letters’ that former Fr. Vlasic was sending to his lover ‘nun’ in Germany.. I highly doubt that he (Pope) has a good outlook on the whole affair.
God Bless!
Michael
Father,
June 25 is a day that some within the movement have designated as the “Feast of Our Lady of Peace.” June 25th marks the second day of the alleged apparitions, but the movement itself celebrates it as the “first day.” (The Feast of St. John the Baptist got in the way of the documented first day, of June 24th).
There is a shrine to the Queen of Peace in Hrasno, Bosnia-Herzegovina which is not far from Medjugorje. In May of 1997, the nuncio released this statement:
On the occasion of the 20th anniversary of the Marian Shrine “The Queen of Peace” in Hrasno, the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, sends greeting and best wishes to your Excellency and all those participating in this solemn celebration, and hopes that the solemn anniversary of this shrine, a true centre of Marian devotion for the whole diocese, will always be a place in which the peace of the Risen Christ shines out in the life of the Catholics of this region. It is the Holy Father’s prayer that, with Our Lady’s maternal intercession, He (the Risen Christ) will support the Catholics of Croatia in building a future of hope and peace worthy of their rich and proud Christian heritage which goes back some fourteen centuries. The Supreme Pontiff gladly bestows his particular apostolic benediction upon you the secular clergy, the religious, and all the faithful of the diocese of Trebinje.
Signed:
Angelo Cardinal Sodano.
Secretary of State.
Note that this shrine to the Queen of Peace was officially recognized by the Church in 1977 – more than four years before the onset of Medjugorje claims (all the more questionable that there would be a parallel “shrine” to the Queen of Peace.
Consider that the Holy See issued it’s decree, Romanis Pontificibus, in 1975 which was attempting to move the diocese out of “missionary status.” Unfortunately, Franciscans of the Herzegovina Province bulked repeatedly, some unto forcibly usurping several parishes in the 1990′s. You will see people painting this as “the rift between the bishop and the Franciscans,” but it is really disobedience of Franciscans within that province to the Holy See itself, which issued the 1975 decree (I have all the background in that post, along with the decree, which I had translated from the Latin by a canonist).
The recognition of the Queen of Peace Shrine in Hrasno happened, in part, to bring all parties together in prayer for unity in the region.
Today, those parishes usurped in the 1990′s remain in the hands of men who were removed from the Franciscan order by the Generalate in Rome, and suspended a divinis by the Church. There are invalid sacraments taking place in these parishes, and those pastors brought in a fake “bishop” to try to Confirm young people. They even tried to get a bishop from the Old Catholic Church (schismatic) to consecrate one of them a bishop and they were turned down.
What is most interesting is that the “gospa” of Medjugorje says nothing at all about the sacrilegious acts taking place so close to the sight of an alleged apparition. She chatters on about banalities and niceties with no mention of her disappointment with these offenses that require serious acts of reparation. So much for Medjugorje being a “continuation of Fatima.” When you explain this to supporters of Medjugorje, it goes right over their heads.
[Sidenote: I’m using the hyperlink to my own site on Medjugorje in my signature rather than my main blog, which is Te Deum Laudamus!
While all of this energy is being wasted on an alleged apparition those that are true are being ignored. Look at Rawanda or Myrna Nazour of Damascus, both approved by local bishops.
Our Lady does not leave the glories of heaven friviously. She comes to warn of genocide in Rawanda, to bring about unity among Christians in Damascus and deliver other important messages from God. How better to attempt to destroy the true messages from heaven than by counterfeits which go on and on and on ad nauseum deceiving Cardinal and exorcist.Did not the Lord say that even the elect would be deceived.One might also ask why all of this diversion from the true messages,
Fatima, Lourdes etc in these times. This also bears pondering.
With regards to what I said about the June 25th “anniversary” date, you can see in this post by Louis Belanger, proofs from the writings of two Medjugorje protagonists – Fr. Rene Laurentin and Fr. Jozo Zovko, that the alleged apparitions began on June 24, 1981. Once again, that date turned out rather inconvenient as a “feast day” for Medjugorje since June 24th is the Feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist.
Another interesting thing to note about the Medjugorje movement is that it celebrates the birthday of the Blessed Virgin Mary on August 5th rather than on September 8th.
After Tomislav Vlasic was removed from the Franciscan order and from the clerical state in the wake of serious canonical sanctions and an ongoing study into his involvement with Medjugorje, the bishop published details proving his involvement at key periods in the early days. The Medjugorje movement has distanced itself from him since he later moved to Italy, but the Church has been most concerned with the early days (the flashpoint always yields the freshest clues for investigators).
In his published report about Tomislav Vlasic, he explains how the former friar asked to have the birthday of the Blessed Virgin Mary moved. Of course, Ecclesiology 101 should tell us that the diocesan bishop does not have the right to alter a liturgical feast observed by the Church. Unfortunately, some blame the bishop for not moving the feast day. Worse yet, if you ask many Medjugorje supporters casually, “When is Mary’s Birthday?” – you will get August 5th back from many people.
In the same manner that the “first day” was conveniently moved off the Feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist (and bought into by supporters despite facts to the contrary), the August 5th date was convenient for large youth gatherings since school was still out. September 8th would not make it likely that many youth would be able to go to Medjguorje.
From the pastoral recommendations for the Year of Faith from the Vatican.
During this Year, it will be helpful to invite the faithful to turn with
particular devotion to Mary, model of the Church, who “shines forth to
the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues.”[19]
Therefore, every initiative that helps the faithful to recognize the special
role of Mary in the mystery of salvation, love her and follow her as a
model of faith and virtue is to be encouraged. To this end it would be
proper to organize pilgrimages, celebrations and gatherings at the
major Marian shrines.
If you were the pope and if you would recommend to visit the major
Marian shrines, then what have you in mind respect Medjugorje?
You can read the heart of a person from his intentions.
I fear the queen is going to be left by the king.
Checkmate follows. For whom though?
The apparitions are never going to end and if the Vatican comes down on this thing many people are going to leave the church. That will be very sad but how much longer can this farce be allowed to go on? 20 more years? 50? Will the original “seers” die off and somebody else will take over having visions on schedule?
Thank you, Diane!
laurens: major Marian shrines = approved
Concerning the statement that an apparition cannot be/or has never been judged until it is finished, Donal Foley, in the updated version of his book, “Understanding Medjugorje; Heavenly Visions or Religious Illusion?”, gives these facts.
“”However, there have been visions which have been condemned as false by the local Ordinary, even while they were allegedly going on, including those at Palmar de Troya, in Spain in 1968, and at Bayside in the United States, in 1970. The Holy See, too, has found it necessary to intervene in the past, as in the case of the false visions at Heroldsbach in Germany, in July 1951, even though these were said to have continued until October 1952.”
(Bouflet, Faussaires de Dieu, (Presses de la Renaissance, Paris, 2000), p. 89, Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 1951, 561; Bouflet, Medjugorje, ou la fabrication du surnaturel, pp. 208–209.)
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That thing about no decision being able to be made while visions are ongoing…I’m not sure that is correct. For example, if someone were claiming to have visions but the content clearly contradicted Church teaching, I hardly think the Church would hesitate to give a negative judgment. And it also seems to me that if it seemed clear that a supposed visionary were just continuing to have visions on and on in order to delay a negative decision, I doubt the Church would let itself be kept from deciding by that. This is what it seems to me, but if someone has an official reference otherwise, let him/her post it.
Also, when it comes to Medj, I hear that claim (that no decision can be made yet because visions continue) mostly coming from those who seem so much in favor of Medj that they plan to resist any negative decision and are even setting up excuses in advance on their pro-Medj websites… WHEREAS any faithful Catholic will abide by the decisions already made by the local bishop/s and ultimately by this Commission – all of us no matter what our opinion must accept by the Church’s decision – it’s called basic Catholic obedience!
Nonny, you are right. Negative judgments are not restricted.
I believe it is good to debate and think deeply with charity, and to question, and certainly the good father is fostering that atmosphere here. So, yes, let the debate continue for God, not for man to win. To get to the heart of the matter, and Fr. does this well, we must realize that above all the little details debated, that God is triumphant no matter what the decision. If we focus upward instead of around and outward, we will realize that negative or positive, the ultimate authority is Christ, and he established the Church to carry that out. First, love, then obedience…and a realization that even in what is perceived as negative, God has won. If so many conversions have been real, then God is winning, even in a not so “real” instance. But either way, we know the end of the Story, so why leave the Church if the decision is negative?
Well, keeping things simple, since the two bishops with authority over Medj. over the years have said nothing supernatural is happening, and this after intense investigation, it should be enough for all of us. The bishops have the grace of their office. We are not bishops with authority over Medj. We should be silent and go about the business of saving our own souls which doesn’t require Medj.
I’ll just add that the so-called seers were sneaking behind their parents’ backs getting together for a smoke when the alleged first “vision” happened. Really, the massive disobedience surrounding this phenomena from the start right up till today makes me doubt the whole thing. Especially when I read the lives of the children of Fatima, Bernadette Soubiroux, Sister Agnes of Akita, St. Faustina, etc. the comparison is so stark as to be frightening.
I’m afraid a lot of priests, spiritual directors, and even Cardinal Schoenborn, who has lost a lot of points in my book over this regardless of the Catechism of the Catholic Church project, have been duped and are leading the faithful astray. Why can’t we just go visit Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, pray our rosaries, go to confession frequently and be satisfied?
Hello Barb… good to remember though that this is not about the seers, upon whose holiness nothing depends. There seems to have been a problem in La Salette with some of the kids, at least later… This is absolutely about the messages, etc. Infidelity can play into it if it is clear that the visionaries are promoting the visions just to get a profit!
Also, very good points you make.
Thanks for posting that video here. People need to understand that, first of all, Our Lady would never drop her son, and second of all, someone in a true state of ecstasy would not react to the sudden lunge toward their eyes.
God bless Louis and his work!
I’m still in the “Medjug. is fake” camp, but there is something I’m trying to figure out. Seems as if ‘something’ must have been (still is) appearing to these ‘seers’, although I don’t think it could be Mary. The odds of maintaining a totally made up story among several people for all this time with any sort of consistency is zero. Conspiracies always fall apart pretty quickly. So could these young people be seeing some sort of vision? Or are they just that good at totally faking this for this many years? I’m just wondering.
I would not count that as a reaction by Vicka in the video. If that had happened to me, I would have had a much bigger response. Really I am impressed by her “non-reaction” there to someone almost poking her eye out.
Lots of possibilities. Let us wait and see.
A reaction is a reaction, is it not. But anyway, this is not the point, which is about the messages. That is what will be decided, and, the point is, again, that no positive decision can be made while this is ongoing, but a decision is going to be made…
You’re right, Father. Nothing depends on the holiness of the seers. My observation is that a spirit of disobedience has surrounded this phenomenon from the very beginning and continues. My personal belief is that this is the biggest con Satan has ever pulled off in the history of the world since his fall and that of his buddies after they were created and tested by God.
It’s interesting that a bunch of kids from neighboring villages started claiming they were seeing the Blessed Mother, too, after Our Lady’s appearances to Bernadette at Lourdes became known. The local bishop at that time examined the cases and quickly shut the nonsense down. He did determine that the false cases were either the work of the devil or people seeking attention.
We have to understand that Satan is way smarter than we are and that he is the master of misdirection. He can throw enough orthodox stuff into a phenomenon to make us think it’s of God, but upon closer examination we can see the deception. If we can’t see the deception we can rely on the authority of the Church. I look upon Medj, Bayside, Conyers, Emmitsburg and the like as a really big TEST of our willingness to conform ourselves to God’s will. The minute we think we are smarter than the local bishop with jurisdiction we have just jumped off the cliff.
Please, lets follow the precepts of the Church, the Ten Commandments, the Two Great Commandments, imitate the Blessed Mother and the saints in living the Beatitudes. Isn’t that enough to struggle with in today’s world?
God bless you, Father. I read your whole series on exorcism and found it very interesting. I’m glad God has called you to be a hermit and I hope you’ll pray for me. Priests are most precious to me and I probably should be praying a lot more for all of you than I do.
Thank you, Barb!
None of the seers have disavowed His Excellency Bishop Ratko Perić.
They regard him as their bishop, their shepherd from God, even though H.E. maintains that the apparitions are not worthy of belief.
If the seers were frauds, they would have denounced their bishop long ago, starting with H.E. Bishop Pavao Žanić, and set up their own bishop.
For as much as the seers may disagree with their shepherds, they do not reject them and remain in communion with them. Bishop Perić presided over confirmations in Medjugorje just this past May (http://te-deum.blogspot.com/2012/05/full-translation-bishops-2012.html).
[[[@ Justin Martyr: Those who go to that link would do well to read the observations on that page before reading the homily itself. We read about parallel church, etc. Here's what the bishop said years ago, a statement that doesn't sound like robust communion. h/t to SanctePater: http://www.sanctepater.com/2012/07/truth-about-medjugorje.html
The Truth About Medjugorje
By Msgr. Pavao Zanic, Bishop of Mostar
Bishop Pavao Zanic, presided over the Diocese of Mostar, from 1971-1993.
He exercised full ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the parish of Medjugorje, which is located in the region of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He published the following article in 1990.
1. The truth regarding the events in Medjugorje is being sought out by a Commission of the Bishop's Conference of Yugoslavia (kJ). Their work though, is progressing slowly. Therefore with this statement I wish to help the Commission in coming to a decision as soon as possible. Propaganda in favor of Medjugorje is being rushed in order to place the Church and the world before a "fait accompli". This has been the intention of the defenders of Medjugorje from the beginning. It must be admitted that they have succeeded, because the other side is either working too slowly or remaining silent. For these reasons and due to the motivation that I have been given from many from all over the world who realize that the truth has been trampled upon, I have decided to make another statement according to my duty and my conscience, and help the Commission. With this statement I wish to awaken the consciences of those who defend Medjugorje. Their path is simple, wide and downhill all the way, while mine is difficult, thorny and uphill. The Church and Our Lady have no need of falsehoods. Jesus says: "The truth will make you free" (Din 8,32). "I am the way and the truth and the life" (Jn 14,6) "For this I was born, and for this I have come into the world to bear witness to the truth. Every one who is of the truth, hears my voice" (Jn 18,37). For even a short description of the falsehoods about Medjugorje we would need 200 pages, but for now all I will give is this short summary without a scientific approach. I am somewhat uneasy because of the fact that in some statements my name is in the forefront, yet from the beginning of the "apparitions" I have been in the center of the events due to my episcopal position and duties. I am sorry as well for having to mention some "unpleasant things", but without them the arguments lose their strength. However, the most unpleasant things will be left out.
2. A characteristic attitude: Marina B., a tourist guide for Atlas travel, brought a priest from Panama to my office in August 1989. His name: Presbitero Rodriguez Teofilo, pastor of Nuestra Senora de Lourdes. With him came Carmen Cecilia Capriles - a journalist, Gerente General of the IATA agency, and Averrida Alberto Navarro, Apartado 1344 zona 7, Panama. Marina presented herself as a tour-guide, translator for English and a convert of Medjugorje. The priest asked me for the reasons why I do not believe in the "apparitions". I told him that I have at least 20 reasons not to believe, of which only one is necessary for those who are sober and well instructed in the faith to come to the conclusion that the apparitions are not of the supernatural. He asked me to please tell him at least one reason. I told him about the case of the ex-franciscan priest Ivica Vego. Due to his disobedience, by an order of the Holy father the Pope, he was thrown out of his franciscan religious order OFM by his General, dispensed from his vows and suspended "a divinis". He did not obey this order and he continued to celebrate Mass, distribute the sacraments and pass the time with his mistress. It is unpleasant to write about this, yet it is necessary in order to see who Our Lady is speaking of. According to the diary of Vicka and the statements of the "seers", Our Lady mentioned 13 times that he is innocent and that the bishop is wrong. When his mistress, sister Leopolda, a nun, became pregnant, both of them left Medjugorje and the religious life and began to live together near Medjugorje where their child was born. Now they have two children. His prayerbook is still sold in Medjugorje and beyond in hundreds of thousands of copies.
I asked Marina to translate this in English. Marina cannot be blamed for having fallen into a community which is concealing the truth. She spontaneously responded according to the practice in Medjugorje: "Do we have to tell them these ugly things?" I responded by saying that if you had not held back and covered these "ugly events" these people from Panama would have found out earlier and they would not have had to travel to Medjugorje for nothing. It is an injustice and a sin to hide this truth, even though it be unpleasant, it must be said.
3. The Marian theologian Rene Laurentin behaves in the same manner. He came to visit me around Christmas 1983, and I offered him dinner. He asked me why I did not believe in the apparitions. I told him that according to the diary of Vicka and the words of the other "seers" this 'Lady' has been speaking against the bishop. Laurentin quickly responded: "Don't publish that, because there are many pilgrims and converts there." I was scandalized by this statement of this well known Mariologist! This has remained Laurentin's position: to hide the truth, and defend falsehoods. He has written around ten books on the topic of Medjugorje and in almost all of them, the truth and bishop Zanic are under fire. He knows well what people like to hear. Therefore, it was relatively easy for him to find those who would believe him. "A veritate quidam auditum avertent, ad fabulas autem convertentur" - They will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths (2 Tim 4:4). The "seers" and defenders of Medjugorje led by Laurentin, from the very outset have seen that the modern believer in a communist country very quickly believes in everything "miraculous", in apparent miraculous healings and apparent messages from "Our Lady".
4. The main players on which Medjugorje rests are retired archbishop F. Franic, R. Laurentin, Lj. Rupcic OFM, Amorth, Rastrelli S.J., and some franciscans and charismatics from all over the world. Many books have been quickly published, as well as articles, brochures, films and souvenirs. On the move are tourist agencies, pilgrimages, prayer books written by two franciscans Vego and Prusina who were thrown out of the OFM Order, published in many languages in 600,000 copies, fanatical prayer groups that are inspired by the apparent messages of Our Lady and the great motivator of all - money. No one even mentions that which throws doubt on the "apparitions". The bishop has been warning everyone, but the 'machinery' has been breaking forward. There have been mentioned 50 miraculous healings, then 150, 200, 300 and so on. Laurentin chose 56 dossiers and sent them to the "Bureau medical de Lourdes". Dr. Mangiapan responded in their bulletin Avril/84, that these dossiers have no practical value, and they cannot be used or considered as serious proofs of the apparitions in Medjugorje. Much has been written about the healing of Diane Basile. I sent the dossier to Dr. Mangiapan who studied the case and then took the position: "opinion plus que reservee". It is a case of sclerosis multiplex. More will be written about this later in a book.
5. The credibility of the "seers" - Mirjana Dragicevic. One month after the beginning of the "apparitions" I went to Medjugorje to question the "seers". I asked each of them to take an oath on the cross and demanded that they must speak the truth. (This conversation and oath was recorded on tape). The first one was Mirjana: "We went to look for our sheep when at once..." (The associate pastor in the parish interrupted and told me that they actually went out to smoke, which they hid from their parents). "Wait a minute Mirjana, you're under oath. Did you go out to look for your sheep?" She put her hand over her mouth, "forgive me, we went out to smoke." She then showed me the watch on which the "miracle" occurred because the hands of the watch had gone haywire. I took the watch to a watch expert who said that the watch had certainly fallen and become disordered. After bringing the watch back to her I told her not to mention that a miracle occurred. Yet, on cassettes taped later on, she went on to speak of how a miracle occurred with the watch and that initially they had gone out to search for their sheep.
Later on, she spoke that Our Lady said that all faiths are equal. How much can we believe Mirjana?
6. Vicka Ivankovic is the main "seer" from the beginning and through her the creator of Medjugorje, Rev. Tomislav Vlasic OFM, has launched the main portion of falsehoods regarding Medjugorje. He presented himself to the Pope in a letter May 13, 1984 as follows: "I am Rev. Tomislav Vlasic, the one according to Divine Providence who guides the seers of Medjugorje." It would have been better for him that he withdrew himself into the 'desert' and that he remained silent, because his past speaks enough about him. Vicka spoke and wrote much, and in so doing she fell into many contradictions. Prof. Nikola Bulat, a member of the first commission, questioned her and wrote a 60 page study on her. He numbered all the illogicalities and falsehoods of her diary. Here I will only mention the bloody handkerchief. Word spread around that there was a certain taxi driver who came across a man who was bloody all over. This man gave this taxi driver a bloodied handkerchief and he told him to: "throw this in the river". The driver went on and then he came across a woman in black. She stopped him and asked him to give her a handkerchief. He gave her his own, but she said: "not that one but the bloody handkerchief." He gave her the handkerchief she wanted and she then said: "If you had thrown it into the river the end of the world would have occurred now." Vicka Ivankovic wrote in her diary that they asked Our Lady if this event was true and she said that it was, and along with this, "that man covered, with blood was my son Jesus, and I (Our Lady) was that woman in black."
What kind of theology is this? From this it appears that Jesus wants to destroy the world if a handkerchief is thrown into a river and it's Our Lady who saves the world!
[See Vicka in the video at the top of this blog post]
7. On the 14th of January 1982, Vicka, Marija and little Jakov came to visit me. Vicka began to speak quite nervously because she was speaking falsehoods. She said: “Our Lady sent us to you to tell you that you are too harsh with the franciscans…” In what way? “We don’t know!” Two franciscan chaplains in Mostar, Ivica Vego and Ivan Prusina, which the bishop sought to remove from Mostar because of disorder and disobedience towards the faithful of the newly established cathedral-parish in Mostar, defended themselves before their superiors by saying that they would not leave Mostar because Our Lady through Vicka, told them not to leave. This was mentioned to me by a member of the franciscan Provincial council. I asked Vicka at our meeting: “Did Our Lady mention anything about the Mostar chaplains, Vego and Prusina?” “She did not, we don’t know them” responded all three. Our conversation lasted 30 minutes and I taped all of it. I repeated the question of the chaplains of Mostar several times and they always responded: “We don’t know them.” Later on, I found from Vicka’s diary that they knew the chaplains very well. It was clear to me that they were lying, yet I did not want to mention this to them in order to maintain their confidence during our conversations.
8. On the 4th of April 1982, Vicka and Jakov came to visit me “sent by Our Lady”. The chaplains of Mostar, Vego and Prusina were thrown out of the franciscan Order OFM in January of that year by the superiors of their Order. Many followers of Medjugorje and “Our Lady” defended the expelled chaplains. During our conversation Vicka very excitedly began: “The last time we were with you we didn’t tell you everything and for this reason Our Lady scolded us. We spoke of many things and therefore we forgot…” “What did you forget?” “Our Lady told us to tell you that those chaplains Vego and Prusina are priests and therefore they can celebrate Mass just as other priests.” “Wait a minute. Did Our Lady tell you this before our last meeting?” “Yes, that’s why she sent us to you. Last time I spoke of many other things and I forgot to mention this.” During that previous meeting I asked her directly several times if Our Lady mentioned anything about the two chaplains. It was clear to me that Vicka was lying and this was proof enough for me not to trust her statements. Marija and Jakov also participated in this lie.
9. Towards the end of January 1983, Rev. Grafenauer, a jesuit priest, came to me with the intention of searching out the phenomenon of Medjugorje. He listened to 20 cassettes and after having listened to them he said that he would not go to Medjugorje because he concluded that Our Lady is not there. Upon my insistence he went to Medjugorje and after a few days he came back as a “convert” of Rev. Vlasic. He brought some documents, threw them on the table and said: “Here’s what Our Lady wishes to tell you!” I understood this as a plot to overthrow the bishop with the help of Our Lady. The documents he brought were a compilation of Vicka’s diary, the parish chronicle and hand written documents. For this reason it is difficult to establish where they were first written. Vicka and those who defend Medjugorje hid this from the bishop for more than a year. Here are a few quotes:
Dec 19, 1981. “Our Lady said that the bishop is to blame for the disorder in Herzegovina. She also said that Rev. Ivica Vego is not to blame, yet that the bishop has all authority. Our Lady said that he (Vego) remain in Mostar and not leave.
January 3, 1982. All the “seers” together asked Our Lady about Rev. Ivica Vego. Our Lady answered: “Ivica is innocent. If they throw him out of the franciscan Order, may he remain courageous… Ivica is innocent.” Our Lady repeated this three times.
January 11, 1982. We asked again about the two chaplains of Mostar and Our Lady repeated twice that which she mentioned earlier regarding them. Note: January 14, 1982 Vicka was at the Chancery office with the bishop and at that meeting she mentioned that she did not know Vego.
January 20, 1982. The children asked what Rev. Ivica Vego and Rev. Ivan Prusina were to do now that they were thrown out of the Order. Our Lady answered: “They are innocent. The bishop was harsh in his decision. They can stay.”
April 15, 1982. Vicka asked Our Lady a question. “Could you generally tell me everything about Ivica Vego and Ivan Prusina?” Our Lady smiled at the first and then she said: “They are innocent.” She repeated twice that: “The bishop has made a mistake… let them remain in Mostar… they can say mass sometimes but may they be careful to stay away from attention until things calm down. They have no faults…”
April 16, 1982. Yesterday while we were with Our Lady we asked her if we could pray an Our Father for them (Vego and Prusina). She answered immediately: “Yes you can”, and she prayed with them. When we finished the prayer she smiled and said to me: “Those two are constantly on your mind.” I answered: “You’re right”. April 26, 1982. Our Lady: “The bishop has no real love of God in his heart. Regarding the bishop, may Ivica and Ivan remain calm. What the bishop is doing is contrary to the will of God, yet he can do as he pleases, but one day justice as you have never seen shall be revealed.”
10. Vicka never denied that Our Lady said these things or that she wrote these things down in her diary. The assurance and authenticity of this can be best confirmed by a cassette taped by Rev. Grafenauer during his talks with Vicka and Marija. He left taped copies of the cassette in the parish of Medjugorje, with the bishop and he left one with the Bishop’s Conference in Zagreb. The cassette should be heard!
A conversation with Vicka: “The bishop has the duty to judge whether or not this is Our Lady…” said Rev. Grafenauer.
Vicka: He can judge as he wants, but I know it’s Our Lady.
Graf: The Church says that those who are confident in themselves, that this itself is a sign that Our Lady is not in question here.
Vicka: Let those who are doubtful remain doubtful, I’m not.
Graf: This is not a good sign… you once told the bishop that he should listen more to Our Lady than to the Pope.
Vicka: Yes I did.
Graf: This means that the bishop should listen to you more than to the Pope.
Vicka: No, not me.
Graf: But the bishop doesn’t know what the phenomenon is and perhaps it is not Our Lady.
Vicka: Yes it is Our Lady.
Graf: You told the bishop that he is to blame and that those two (Vego and Prusina) are innocent and that they can perform their priestly duties.
Vicka: Yes I did.
Graf: Can they hear confession? Did Our Lady mention this?
Vicka: Yes.
Graf: If Our Lady said this and the Pope says that they cannot…
Vicka: The Pope can say what he wants, I’m telling it as it is!
Graf: See, this is how one can come to the conclusion that this is not Our Lady… when the Pope says no, they cannot celebrate Mass, and they cannot hear confessions, and then on the other hand, Our Lady says they can do both, this cannot be!
Vicka: I know what is right (What Our Lady said).
Graf: This cannot be true. I would put my hand into fire to testify that this is not Our Lady speaking. When a person has a greater gift there also exists a greater danger that the devil could be at work upon this person.
What a degrading humiliation of Our Lady! From these statements she is destroying obedience in the Church, obedience to the bishop, to the heads of the OFM Order, and to the Holy father. She is defending Vego!
11. The apparition in Cerno. Cerno is a village not far away from Medjugorje. The eighth day after the beginning of the apparitions in Medjugorje there was an “apparition” near Cerno. The “seers” told Rev. Jozo Zovko, the pastor of Medjugorje at the time, of this happening the evening of the event. They mentioned that Our Lady said four or five times that she would appear three more days, that is, on July 1, 2, and 3rd. This was taped on cassette and publicized by Rev. Ivo Sivric OFM. The cassette was reproduced. A few years later Rev. Janko Bubalo published a book titled: A thousand meetings with Our Lady. This is a book of conversations with Vicka. Vicka does not mention this event, therefore Rev. Bubalo asked whether or not Our Lady said “only three more days”. Vicka responded that she does not remember!
It is evident that Vicka is speaking falsehoods and that Our Lady cannot say that which Vicka is saying. Vicka is fabricating these statements. Should this remain unknown to the rest of the world? Evil (such as speaking falsehoods about Our Lady) must not be done in order to obtain a good (such as pilgrimages, prayers, etc.)
12. “Seer” Marija Pavlovic. Here is a written account of the taped conversation between Rev. Grafenauer and Marija:
Graf: Did Our Lady say that the bishop is to blame?
Marija: Yes.
Graf: Did she say that Vego and Prusina were not to blame?
Marija: Yes.
Graf: When Our Lady says that the bishop is to blame this immediately appears suspicious and we could conclude that this is not Our Lady speaking. The seers are apparently spreading word around that the bishop is to blame.
Marija: Our Lady told us this.
Archbishop F. Franic, Laurentin and many others know all this, yet they remain silent. What kind of theology can accept these statements by Our Lady through the declarations of the “seers” that their Teacher, Pastor and Liturgist – the bishop, who has legally received his duty from Christ through the Church, has no love of God in his heart, that he is declared a sinner throughout the world, that he should convert and that prayers will be said in Medjugorje for this intention? There were even statements made that Jesus himself would pray for the bishop so that the bishop would believe and then take better action in favor of the events in Medjugorje. To say that the bishop is to wait for Our Lady’s judgment is an absurdity. It is an offense against Our Lady the Mother of the Church. God knows that I am not without sin, and that Our Lady could criticize me, yet God alone is the judge. I have never been reprimanded or warned by the Holy See for my episcopal service.
13. The creator of Medjugorje, Rev. Tomislav Vlasic, amongst other things has published and distributed in many languages a seventeen page booklet titled: A calling in the Marian year, Milano, March 25 1988. This regards the founding of a prayer group for young men and women (from Medjugorje) who would live together (Parma, Italy – something which has been unheard of in the history of the Church!) They would be the ones who would save the world. Our Lady apparently gave Rev. Vlasic and Agnes Heupel (a German woman supposedly healed in Medjugorje) the inspiration to establish and to lead this community together in a manner similar to saints Francis and Clare, as described by Vlasic. In order for this action to succeed, Rev. Vlasic asked Marija to add “her witnessing” on three pages. She is a member of this community and on April 21, 1988 she wrote: “Sento il bisogno…” – I feel the need… As can be concluded, Our Lady has given a set program to this community of the “Queen of Peace” and she leads this community through Rev. Vlasic and Agnes who give messages to the community. “I have been in the community for a month and a half. I have apparitions and Our Lady leads me in the mystery of suffering which is the foundation of this community. I must write down everything and publish this once Our Lady tells me to. I have understood God’s plan which he began through Mary in the parish of Medjugorje.” This quote is taken from pages 15 and 16 of Rev. T. Vlasic’s text. The defenders of Medjugorje quickly understood that this community of young men and women living, sleeping, working and praying together in the same house would eventually destroy themselves and Medjugorje. Therefore, they sent their Provincial, Rev. Jozo Vasilj to Parma. He went together with the bishop of Parma, Msgr. B. Cochi and Rev. T. Vlasic to the Congregation in Rome. They were told there that the Church cannot allow such a community to exist and then Rev. T. Vlasic was ordered to dissolve the community and to return to Herzegovina. Vlasic did not obey immediately, yet he returned later. This is what was explained to me by Rev. Jozo Vasilj regarding the community.
14. The same Marija Pavlovic made another public declaration on the 11th of July 1988. On a single sheet of paper, distributed in the same manner as the earlier statement, she mentioned: “I feel a moral obligation to declare before God, Our Lady (the Madonna), and the Church… from the text of A calling… it appears as if I gave Our Lady’s answer to the question put forward by Rev. T. Vlasic, etc. I now declare that I never sought from Our Lady (the Madonna) a confirmation of the work of Rev. Vlasic and Agnes Heupel… my first declaration… does not correspond to the truth. Rev. Vlasic suggested to me a few times (N.B.) that I as one of the “seers” should write a declaration which the world expects… Everything I said does not correspond to the truth. This I declare before the Blessed Sacrament.” Marija Pavlovic.
15. Marija does not deny that she gave her first statement. Rev. T. Vlasic sought statements from her many times and this obviously turns out to be manipulating with one of the “seers”. So we can conclude that Marija has consciously spoken falsehoods on the first or second occasion. She has lied and this she attributes to Our Lady. It is evident that she (Marija) is a toy in Rev. Vlasic’s hands. This was clear to me even earlier yet up till now, I didn’t have material proof to back this up. Rev. T. Vlasic has manipulated with all the “seers” in the same fashion. Under this type of manipulation Marija saw how Our Lady cried when someone mentioned the bishop at a prayer meeting: “From Our Lady’s eye flowed forth a great tear. The tear ran down her face and disappeared into a cloud under her feet. Our Lady began to cry and she ascended to heaven crying” (Aug. 22, 1984). An obvious fabrication by Rev. T. Vlasic intended to frighten the bishop.
Why don’t the defenders of Medjugorje mention these two statements of Marija? Must these “ugly” things be hidden from the world because there are many “conversions” in Medjugorje? (Laurentin). Laurentin writes in his book Dernieres Nouvelles 3, on page 27, that a certain monsignor asked Marija to pray for a message from Our Lady for his priests. Marija answered: “Our Lady said that they should read Laurentin’s book and spread it around”!
It is a terrible sin to attribute one’s own lies to Our Lady. When the world learns of this, who will believe them anymore? They have been discredited. No one can destroy this material evidence. It will be reproduced and spread by word of mouth. I know well that there are many who disregard such material. They accept the events of Medjugorje irrationally, with great emotion and with personal interests. They are blind, but these documents will remain a part of the history of the Church and of Mariology.
16. The “seer” Ivan Dragicevic. Regarding the “great sign”, Vicka mentions this 13 times in the diaries, 14 times it is mentioned in the Parish chronicle, 52 times on the cassettes, and innumerous times in talks with the bishop. In the spring of 1982, I asked the “seers” to write everything they knew about the sign without making the “secret” public. The way I suggested they do it was to write down information on paper in duplicate. Then this would be sealed in an envelope and a copy would remain with them, and one with the bishop. When the “sign” occurs, then we would open the envelopes and see whether or not the “sign” was predicted. Rev. Tomislav Vlasic, pastor of Medjugorje at the time, told the “seers” to say that Our Lady said not to write anything down for nobody, and so they didn’t. Ivan Dragicevic was in the franciscan minor seminary at Visoko, Bosna at that time and he wasn’t informed of this on time. Two members of the first Commission, Dr. M. Zovkic and Dr. Z. Puljic (now bishop of Dubrovnik), went to visit Ivan in Visoko. They gave him a sheet of paper which was somewhat greenish in color with questions typed out on it. Ivan wrote down the content of the “sign”, dated the document and signed it in their presence without a word or any sign of fear. A few years later, Laurentin wrote that Ivan told him personally that he wrote absolutely nothing down on that sheet of paper and that he tricked the two members of the Commission. On March 7, 1985, three members of the Commission went to ask Ivan if what Laurentin writes is true. Ivan said it was true and that they could freely go ahead and open the envelope in the chancery office because in it they will only find a white sheet of paper. They came back to Mostar where the Commission was having a meeting and before all the members, they opened the envelope. In the envelope on a greenish sheet of paper they found written the content of the sign: Our Lady said that she would leave a sign. The content of this sign I reveal to your trust. The sign is that there will be a great shrine in Medjugorje in honor of my apparitions, a shrine to my image. When will this occur? The sign will occur in June.
Dated: May 9, 1982. Seer: Ivan Dragicevic.
After having heard this lie, the members of the first Commission wanted to end all further work, yet they stayed on. Within a few days of this event Rev. Slavko Barbaric OFM, took the “seers” somewhere and instructed them all, including Ivan, to write a declaration that Ivan did not disclose the sign!
Ivan sent messages from Our Lady to the bishop. On April 24, 1984 Our Lady said the following regarding the bishop: “My son Jesus is praying for him so that he (the bishop) would believe and therefore take better action in favor of Medjugorje.” She added: “How would he react if my son were to appear on earth? Would he then believe?”
Regarding the Commission, Our Lady says only the following: “Pray, pray, pray! Think over and live the messages I have given and you will see why I have come.” Ivan Dragicevic, Medjugorje.
17. “Tell the bishop that I seek a quick conversion from him towards the happenings in Medjugorje before it’s too late. May he accept these events with plenty of love, understanding and great responsibility. I want him to avoid creating conflicts between priests and to stop publicizing their negative behaviors. The Holy father has given all bishops the duty to fulfill certain tasks in their respective dioceses. Among these, bishops are to solve problems and arguments. The bishop is the spiritual father of all the parishes in Herzegovina. For this reason I seek his conversion towards these events. I am sending my second-last warning. If what I seek does not come about, my judgment and the judgment of my Son await the bishop. This means that he has not found the way to my Son Jesus.” Our Lady told me to give you this message.
With greetings.
Bijakovici June 21, 1983.
Rev. Tomislav Vlasic brought this document to me, which he more than likely wrote himself in a moment of exaltation. 18. Ivan kept his own diary of the apparitions for a couple of years. This has not been revealed as Vicka’s has not, nor the writings of the others. These are original fonts of the events, yet they are full of naive statements, clear falsehoods and absurdities. They are good proof of the fact that the “seers” do not see Our Lady or receive messages from her. These messages were written by someone else and they were given to Ivan for him to sign as his own. When Rev. Grafenauer brought excerpts from Vicka’s diary to me, I later on asked Vicka to bring her diary to me. She wrote to me on May 7, 1983: “I have found out that excerpts from my diary are being distributed…” This was a very important point which the Commission accepted as good argument that the diary was written by Vicka herself or that she considered it her own. Later on, Rev. T. Vlasic, also came to this conclusion, and therefore in 1984, he declared before the Commission and myself, that Vicka did not write that letter to me but rather, that a franciscan did (probably Vlasic himself) and that he gave it to her to sign! There are many similar examples of manipulation, but none have such clear cut evidence as this.
19. Secrets and secrecy. From the beginning of the “apparitions”, the “seers”, (obviously having been instructed in order to escape being controlled) have said that “Our Lady” speaks differently to each of them. When the “secrets” were fabricated, each was to have his/her own (60 in total) and no one was to reveal them to anyone. Mirjana and Ivanka received a letter from Our Lady which nobody was to read. In the beginning there were no moments of ecstasy nor avoiding the community. They spoke publicly and were spoken to. They only avoided the Commission. After having admitted that they were consulted, they asked “Our Lady” if they could write down the content of the “great sign” on paper and seal it in an envelope. “Our Lady” responded: NO! Ivan though, wrote down the sign and later on he said (which has been taped as well) that “Our Lady” did not scold him for doing this. The secrets were to be given to a priest (a franciscan). Why were they not given to the Commission, the bishop, or to the Pope? In the first months they often said that the “great sign” would come: very soon, quickly, and so on… When the first year ended, they changed their tone. Vicka wrote “Our Lady’s life” for a year and a half, and this is a great secret which shall be published “when Our Lady permits.” The Commission asked for this diary about Our Lady, yet “Our Lady” did not comply with their demand. Can the Commission just see the diary without taking it or opening it? No it cannot! This turns out to be a plot to make fools out of all those who are naive enough to wait for this sign until the end of the world. I have already declared earlier and now I repeat the same declaration that if Our Lady leaves a sign which the “seers” are speaking of, I’ll make a pilgrimage from Mostar to Medjugorje (30 km) on my knees and beg the franciscans and the “seers” for forgiveness.
20. Slander against the bishop. “The bishop also believed in the beginning”. This is not true! While the communists were persecuting the franciscans, the “seers” and pilgrims, I defended all of them and therefore I did not change my mind “because of threats by the Republic commission or because the diocesan priests sought this from me.” This is simply fabricated slander by many. While I was publicly defending the imprisoned franciscans, Rev. Jozo Zovko said during the investigations that the bishop is a ‘wolf’ and a ‘hypocrite’. These are the exact words written down in his sentence. Zovko’s lawyer, Vukovic, asked through a colleague what I had done to Zovko to deserve such heavy accusations. Rev. T. Vlasic often put “Our Lady’s” words into the mouths of the “seers”, such as “Our Lady’s” affirmation that satan (in this case the bishop) is out to destroy her plan. He wrote this more clearly in a letter to friends in the Vatican. I complained about this accusation that he has called the bishop satan, in front of Vlasic and his Provincial. He did not deny my objection but rather, he justified his words by saying that he wrote this while under the influence of extreme emotion. A person can say something while under emotion, but this cannot be written down and translated into foreign languages.
21. By their fruits. The most common argument of the defenders of Medjugorje is that the fruits of the events in Medjugorje prove that Our Lady is appearing there. Those who know a bit more than the pilgrims who come to Medjugorje say: the fruits of the staunchest defenders of Medjugorje show that they themselves do not believe in the apparitions. If all the “ugly things” could be made public then surely the answer would be clearly negative to everyone. Yet, Laurentin, Rupcic, Vlasic, Barbaric and others meticulously hide the truth. If the defenders of Medjugorje come across someone who is skeptical of the apparitions, they quickly isolate this person, accuse him of something or declare him mad (J.L. Martin). The majority of the pious public has naively fallen victim of the great propaganda, the talk of the apparitions and healings. These people themselves have become the greatest propaganda for the events. They do not even stop to think that the truth has been hidden by deliberate falsehoods. They do not know that not one miraculous healing has occurred that could have been verified by competent experts and institutions such as the “Bureau medical de Lourdes”. No one knows of any healed from Herzegovina. Everyone knows that little Daniel, old Jozo Vasilj, Venka Brajcic and others cited in the first books about Medjugorje were not healed.
22. Promises of healings are characteristic of the events. When they don’t occur as promised, then they are denied because they were never taped or written down on paper. There have been many promises that have ended tragically. What interests us is whether or not “Our Lady” is giving these promises, or whether or not they are thought up by the “seers”. The tragic end of Marko Blazevic as described by the retired archbishop of Belgrade, Msgr. Turk, says much regarding “promises” of healing. The archbishop writes May 22, 1984, that he was received as a patient of the Cardiology clinic at the Belgrade hospital. The archbishop received the bed that was previously occupied by Marko Blazevic of Buna, near Mostar, who was to go in for an operation. Mr. Blazevic told the archbishop and many other patients, doctors and hospital staff that Our Lady had promised, through the “seers”, that the operation would succeed. A nun who assisted in the operating room, wrote to me later that Blazevic’s wife and his daughter spoke to her with a fanatical type of faith in “Our Lady’s promise”. A certain doctor was also convinced in this promise. The patient did not wake up after the operation. During the operation, a group of patients prayed fervently outside the doors of the operating room. Many spoke of this incident which left many very disappointed and ashamed before people of other faiths and atheists. Rev. T. Vlasic, in his typical fashion of hiding the truth, succeeding in convincing the daughter of the late Mr. Blazevic, to go to the bishop to tell him that Our Lady only told them to pray, not that she promised them that the operation would succeed!!! I told her not to make a liar out of her late father or liars of the others to whom he spoke to.
23. The franciscan and diocesan clergy. The relations between the franciscan and diocesan clergy regarding pastoral duties in the parishes of Herzegovina were established by a Decision of the Holy See in 1899 by the suggestions of the franciscans themselves and then bishop Paskal Buconjic OFM. According to this Decision the parishes were to be divided equally into two groups of 50% of the faithful between the clergy. Since there were no diocesan clergy at the time, the parishes that rightfully belonged to them were in 1923 left to the franciscans “ad nutum S. Sedis”. Bishop Cule, the first diocesan bishop of Mostar, in 1948 was sentenced to 11 years and 6 months in jail. He served eight and a half years of this sentence before being released. After his jail term the number of diocesan clergy began to rise. In 1968, the Holy See ordered the franciscans to hand over five parishes to the diocesan clergy. They barely gave two parishes. In 1975 after many years of talks and consultations a Decree of the Holy See was issued regarding the division of parishes in Herzegovina. The franciscans publicly and collectively denounced this Decree even though they administer over 80 % of the faithful in the diocese of Mostar. In 1976, due to disobedience, the hierarchy of the franciscan Province along with then Provincial Silic, lost their authority and since then, the Province has been without its independence, and the General of the Order rules directly over the Province “ad instar”. Another penalty was that in 1979, the franciscans from Herzegovina were not allowed to participate in the election of the General. The first point mentioned by the new General of the Order to his brothers in Herzegovina was: ‘the development or creation of obedience to, and cooperation with the bishop in Herzegovina’. Disobedience prevails today as before, and “Our Lady” from the beginning has been defending disobedient franciscans. Vicka writes in her diary of the apparitions, that Our Lady said that the bishop is to blame for all the disorder in Herzegovina. (See no. 9). This is repeated many times. The franciscans themselves are divided. The franciscan opposition that defends Medjugorje succeeded in toppling their own “ad instar” superiors that developed good relations with the bishop, and they installed a group that defends Medjugorje. The new Provincial “ad instar”, Rev. Jozo Vasilj, did not succeed in creating peace and order amongst his brothers so he escaped to the missions in Zaire and won’t come back! (Fruits?!) He has been replaced by the Vice Provincial and the General has called for obedience from all or else the Province shall be abolished. “It is time that everyone take their own personal responsibility before judicial sanctions are made or the Province is abolished.” (Acta Ordinis F.M. fasc. 1/89). The Province will not receive its own hierarchy until the Decree is completed. Three visitors of the OFM Order who came to the Province in 1988, said that there is not one franciscan in the Province who is in favor of completing the Decree. This opinion is exaggerated yet still important.
24. This is only a portion of the “good fruits” of the events. The pilgrims, though, only know that the bishop “hates the franciscans”. There are a good number of franciscans in the Province who cooperate well with the bishop and these franciscans do not believe in the apparitions either. Some of them have never set foot in Medjugorje.
A number of good franciscans have begged me to write something so that together, we could start a battle against the lies of Medjugorje because they believe that “God will punish us franciscans severely because we have spread lies and falsehoods throughout the world and made money on them”.
Of the one hundred diocesan priests in the dioceses of Herzegovina, not one believes in the apparitions. Of the 42 bishops of Yugoslavia (ordinaries, auxiliaries and retired), only one has been outspoken in declaring his belief and has defended the events. Of the 15 members of the first Commission, which was formed by the bishop of Mostar with the help of there(?) bishops and provincials from Yugoslavia, 11 of the members said that there is nothing supernatural in the events of Medjugorje, 2 (franciscans) claimed that the apparitions are authentic, 1 member said that there was something “in nucleo” (in the beginning) and 1 abstained. That which the Commission worked on for three years, the Holy See (contrary to what has been spread by the defenders of Medjugorje) never asked for, or saw, or gave a judgment of. Neither did the Holy See abandon the bishop.
25. From the beginning of the events I warned the franciscans that they must wait for the judgment of the Church, so that together we can search for the truth. The leaders of the events though, had as their aim to bring the masses as soon as possible to Medjugorje, obtain a lot of money for propaganda and use Our Lady for their battle against the bishop. They fabricated miracles regarding the sun. Many pilgrims damaged their eyes from staring into the sun. They cited 50, 150, 200 and 300 healings and they spoke of all sorts of things seeing that the faithful believed everything they said, especially when archbishop F. Franic and Laurentin were there to back them up. The faithful in Medjugorje look upon the events as they are instructed, as is the case in all other places of apparitions be they true or false. The marveling and excitement here has been regarded at times as leading to great blindness and fanaticism.
26. The Italians know well the “story” of Gigliole Ebe Giorgini, the foundress of the false order of “Pia Opera di Gesu Misericordioso”. Separated and remarried civilly, she spent time doing quackery. She gathered young women for their order and she received and earned great amounts of money. She had two priests in her service and many houses. She led a double life and had false stigmata which she made herself. Her “sisters” followed her fanatically and they called her Mamma Ebe. She had male vocations as well, but some who left her later on, declared that she led an immoral life. She had many jewels and gold, two yachts, 32 furs, etc. Many in the Church objected to her way of life, while others fanatically defended her, citing good fruits. She even received praise from two bishops. Twice during the night police raided her room in the mother house and they found her in bed with one of her seminarians. A scandal broke out and she was sentenced twice to many years in prison along with a franciscan who was her confessor. The press wrote for years about this scandal. An illicit film was made as well, yet her followers fanatically and blindly defended her even when the order fell apart. According to them, she was a saint who attracted many vocations and this was argument enough for many that from the “fruits” she was obviously inspired by God! Religious blindness is extremely hard to cure. Fanaticism brought the beginning of the heresies in the church, today it’s the foundation of sects.
The Protestant pastor Rev. Jim Jones developed a great charitable organization in southern Chicago and he gathered great sums of money and many fanatical followers of his sect. In order to be freer in their work, about 1000 of them, went to Guyana, South America where they established “Jonestown” as their new home. They established a dictatorship and fanatical obedience to their “Messiah”. Much was written about terrible things that went on, about the immorality of Jones and how some tried to escape the community but were caught and killed. Then they were without money. Rumors spread that the American army would intervene, so Jones ordered them to retreat to the jungle. Seeing no way out, he called on everyone to give up their lives in order to travel to eternity. Over 900 of them came with cups to a huge pot in order to drink poison and then fell dead. What gave them the strength to commit suicide? Fanaticism! Yet when the Christian faithful hear of apparitions and miracles they easily accept these events as facts without being at all critical of the events. They are then caught up in their blindness and fanaticism. Whatever is spoken is believed automatically, such as, that ordinary rosaries in Medjugorje turn to gold! And people actually believe this!
27. This blindness towards the events in Medjugorje has also caught some priests and bishops. Many priests from Italy, (such as Amorth, Rostral and others), easily could have heard that the bishop, the Commission, the bishops of Yugoslavia, a portion of the franciscans and all the diocesan priests do not believe in the events. Yet, they avoided the truth, even though I received everyone who inquired about the events and gave them my time. I’m particularly surprised by the lack of collegiality by some bishops. Nobody has to accept my judgment, but everyone is obligated by conscience to study well the events of Medjugorje before taking a portion, especially if that person has a position of authority in the Church, as bishops do.
“What have they done to you Our Lady!” For nine years they have been dragging you along as a tourist attraction. They have been speaking with you whenever it pleased them, as if you were a bank teller. They have fabricated messages, and they say that you come and appear there, but beyond their own arguments they have nothing to prove that what they say is true. The whole world is in expectation of a “great sign” and the naive still wait and believe. Unfortunately this false sensation will bring great disgrace and scandal upon the Church. Those who lead the events are not converting even though the threat of the abolition of the Province by the General hangs over them.
This is only a small compilation of that which I would like to write about. Hopefully, I will have the opportunity to expand further, with precise documentation and publish a book on these events.
28. There are many prayers and pious activities in Medjugorje. Some say that there have been conversions as well. I have received indeed many truly touching letters, and I feel sorry for those who will sooner or later be disappointed. But there has also been fanaticism, superstition and misinformation in the events of Medjugorje. I have also received many rude accusations in the mail which I cannot mention, all in the name of the “Queen of Peace”. That which is positive in these events cannot justify the falsehoods and lies that have been spread in order to win the world over for God. Jesus said: “I have come into the world to witness to the truth.” The Church would easily be able to attract the masses if it dropped the sixth commandment, if divorce were allowed, if it let everyone believe and do what they wanted. But, Jesus went on the cross for the truth, and the martyrs gave up their lives for the truth. St. Paul writes to his faithful: “If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1,9). Today, many prayer groups all over the world pray from Rev. Ivica Vego’s prayer book and meditate over the supposed messages of Our Lady as it these things were more important than the Bible and the teaching Magisterium of the Church. I do believe despite these events, that Our Lady shall beg the necessary graces for the Church in order for it to live Christ’s truth.
I know that there will probably be many sincerely pious souls that will misunderstand me and consider me an enemy of Our Lady. I have been to Lourdes many times and to other shrines that have been tied in with apparitions that the Church has recognized. What I am doing is defending the truth, defending the Church, and I pray to God that I be able to give up my life for this.
29. Those who have written favorably about Medjugorje have sold their books well and have made great profits. Unfortunately, those who have written critically about these events have not fared so well. Their work has come against such organized resistance from the promoters of these so-called apparitions that they have, in fact come against a boycott.
Msgr. Pavao Zanic, Bishop of Mostar, 1990
For the other side of this story, I suggest the following publications:
Dr. IVO SIVRIC, OFM (a franciscan born in Medjugorje now living in St. Louis, USA), La face cachée de Medjugorje, tome I, 1988, p.400 (French edition), Editions Psilog, C.P. 300, Saint-Francois-du-Lac, Quebec, Canada J0C 1M0. Tel. (514) 568-3036.
IDEM, The Hidden Side of Medjugorje, volume I, 1989, Ed. Psilog, Saint-Francois-Du-Lac, Quebec (English version)
E. MICHAEL JONES, Medjugorje: The Untold Story, Fidelity Press, 206 Marquette Ave., South Bend, IN 46617, USA. 1988, pp. 133.
Idem, Medjugorje: The Untold Story II, Fidelity Press, South Bend 1989, pp. 144.
P. A. GRAMAGLIA, L’Equivoco di Medjugorje, Apparizioni mariane o fenomeni di medianita? Claudiana, Torino, 1987, pp.172
Link:
•The Truth About Medjugorje
Related:
•Predicting the decision on Medjugorje with common sense
•What is Happening at Medjugorje?
•Medjugorje Commission to Present Final Report by End of 2012
•Medjugorje : “The pope wants a decisive conclusion made” – Father Salvatore Perrella, CDF Expert
•Medjugorje Commission Priest: Christian Who Bases His Faith in Apparitions is Not a Christian Adult, It’s Not Mature
•Medjugorje : The Grand Concealment
•Medjugorje: The unbearable sadness of duping the faithful – 2) Fr. Laurentin’s fabrication concerning the father of a nun’s child – Part 1 – The libel
•Medjugorje: The unbearable sadness of duping the faithful – 2) Fr. Laurentin’s fabrication concerning the father of a nun’s child – Part 2 – The facts
•Medjugorje: The unbearable sadness of duping the faithful – 2) Fr. Laurentin’s fabrication concerning the father of a nun’s child – Part 2 – The facts (Update)
•1987 Homily of Bishop Pavao Zanic on Medjugorje
•Medjugorje Seer in “ecstasy” – Video
•Medjugorje – The Actual Situation Today
•Cardinal Schönborn issues apology to bishop of Medjugorje
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So what! Let all of the heretics leave the Church. Maybe we will be a leaner meaner fighting machine! Praise be to God!
Well, Bella, we, of course, desire that all be saved, though that will not be the case, but we are in anguish for all to praise Mary’s Divine Son in heaven!
I agree we do desire for all to be saved. My comment was not about not saving souls especially since we do not have to be Catholic to be saved. My comment is about the divisions within the church not just Medjugorie, we have the Catholic nun fiasco, the traditional catholics, the liberal wing the supporters of the HHS mandate,ect.ect…Let the church be purged of the heretics and not stand divided after all isn’t that the evil ones stance?
I pray everyday for the conversion of souls even Bishop Lori has said if you do not believe in Catolic dogmas then why are you in the Church?
[Our Lord, it is true, has no time for those who would scandalize others, such as is done by heretics who stay within the Church to scandalize as many as they can. He simply says that it would be better if a donkey millstone were to be tied to their necks and they be thrown into the sea. The trick is how to discern who's who in the effort to save the wheat from the destruction of the chaff. And that's where Matthew 18 comes in, about eventually bringing the heretics to the successor of Saint Peter. It was an error for what's his face to dare hope that no one is in hell in that he would dare hope that all will be saved. Universal salvationism is rubbish. But we have to be in anguish to get as many to know our Lord as we can. Those who come to know Him and reject Him, so as to become non-Catholic or even non-Christian, don't have a chance if they continue to reject our Lord. We are obliged to follow the truth under pain of going to hell. Our consciences need to be formed by the Church. Some good reading on this is a document very dear to John Paul II and Benedict XVI, Dominus Iesus:]
[ http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html ]
[None of that contradicts, by the way, this great sentence that was published today by a group of traditional Catholics: "For this reason it seems opportune that we reaffirm our faith in the Roman Catholic Church, the unique Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ, outside of which there is no salvation nor possibility to find the means leading to salvation; our faith in its monarchical constitution, desired by Our Lord himself, by which the supreme power of government over the universal Church belongs only to the Pope, Vicar of Christ on earth; our faith in the universal Kingship of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Creator of both the natural and the supernatural orders, to Whom every man and every society must submit."]
[As Father Z often says: Benedict XVI is the Pope of Christian Unity.]
Reblogged this on therewasaprophetess.
When I looked into Medjugorie I found it questionable that the “apparitions” have continued so long and that they have changed locations with the “Seer/ers.”
Oh and I’m relieved an official decision is on the way!
What should one do with a rosary made of stone from the site?
I’m shocked that Bella would say that one does not have to be Catholic to get to Heaven. The Church has defined serveral times that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who gets to Heaven will be Catholic when they get there and no religion except for the Catholic religion saves. I don’t deny the possibility of “baptism of desire” but if anyone receives it they become Catholic since baptism makes one a Catholic unless one throws away the Faith and enters willingly into a schismatic or heretical Church or sect. Islam, Post temple Judiasm, Buddhism, Hinduism, Anglicanism, etc do not save. Anyone saved in them is saved despite of them, because at some point (perhaps right before death) Our Lord comes to them and offers them the choice to accept all the the Catholic Church teaches for salvation, including, in the case of non Christians, the choice to explicitly believe in Him and the Trinity.
Incidently this is part of why I think Medj. is a false apparition. This so called apparition is on record as saying that all religions please God. That is patently false and contradicts 2000 years of Catholic doctrine. Our Lady would never say something so absurd that could lead souls astray from the Truth. I pray that the Holy Father puts a stop to this Medj. nonsense.
Hello Natstelle,
A rosary is a rosary is a rosary. Like any rosary, it should be blessed if you intend to use it.
You got it, Justin.
@ Margie… You might not have seen it, but the site to which you linked upholds a priest who promotes a pornographic perversion of the theology of the body. So, I won’t be putting up that comment on this blog.
No, of course, I have not seen that. Thank you for the information. I appreciate that.
Is there a site I can read more about the negatives of this priest?
@ Margie: http://www.headlinebistro.com/en/columnists/eden/071210.html
Justin,
If I have read correctly there is salvation outside of the Catholic Church in certain instances.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church
Is being a member of the Catholic Church something that Jesus wants of us, I would say yes after all it is the Church that he founded, but I would be very careful about judging that someone who is not Catholic can not be saved. I’m sure that there are many Catholics who will not be in heaven. That will be very sad indeed.
Bella… Does not the “vision” at Megdugorje like a Marxist megaphone promote relativity of religion, which is beyond the pale? Justin even mentioned an instance for you. Those who leave the Catholic Church knowing that it is true are at great risk. Those who don’t join the Catholic Church when they know it is true are at great risk. All things being equal, they would go to hell. This is not something to take lightly, as happens at Medjugorje.
Why do you say I take this lightly? I do NOT take salvation lightly. The Catechism tells us in entry #847: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — these too may achieve eternal salvation.
St Faustina writes in Diary entry 1507:
All grace flows from mercy, and the last hour abounds with mercy for us. Let no one doubt concerning the goodness of God; even if a person’s sins were as dark as night, God’s mercy is stronger than our misery. One thing alone is necessary: that the sinner set ajar the door of his heart, be it ever so little, to let in a ray of God’s merciful grace, and then God will do the rest. But poor is the soul who has shut the door on God’s mercy, even at the last hour. It was just such souls who plunged Jesus into deadly sorrow in the Garden of Olives; indeed, it was from His Most Merciful Heart that divine mercy flowed out.
Hello Bella! We all agree. The “lightly” bit was directed at the Medjugorje crowd who hold to relativity of religion, which I’ve heard from both the messages and so many who have gone to Medjugorje. Whenever I pointed to there being a problem with this, they, unlike yourself, said that there was a problem with the translation (which is hard to believe after so many decades). When Father Laurentin, whom I know personally, defended the relativity of the messages, he said incredibly that religion is simply a matter touching on politics, but not religion as such. That did quite make the grade of credible logic. Again, the “lightly” bit is totally directed at decades of denial by Medjugorje supporters. It’s good to see we all agree. This is not an easy topic for any blog. The reason I brought it up is because there is some common sense regarding the decision to be confronted, and it is perhaps a good idea to help prepare for this. Again, for all readers, this post was about the non-possibility of a postive judgment on the “visions” as long as they continue. In all of this, my ordination has been called into question (since a real priest would never question Medjugorje); it’s been said that I use the tactices of secularist mass media in attacking religion (since common sense and religion would never go together); I’ve been called arrogant, prideful, a liar (since, again, common sense and providing a “heads up” in all charity and truth is rejected as being against the “visions”). Wow. But we agree on this point about the non-relativity of religion, which is very wonderful.
Hello, I only discover this excellent site now.
I have been a fanatical defender of Medjugorje since 1984
I’ve been there 24x and gave a 100 conferences in favor of Med. with slides. I wrote many articles in many Med.bulletins in many languages…
Only in 1997 I heard of the blatant disobedience of ‘seers’ and franciscans and started a personal inquiry and later went to see bishop Peric in Mostar to apologize for my stupidities and to inform him about the many manipulations and scandals around Medjugorje. I now have 200 arguments against the authenticity of the ‘apparitions’ and coöperate with authors who publish the sad truth about the Medjugorje-scandal, like Mgr. Peric, Marco Corvaglia, Louis Bélanger, Michael Jones, Diane Korzeniewski, Rick Salbato, Joachim Bouflet, Rudo Franken, Donal Foley, Yves Chiron, Manfred Hauke,etc.
The result is that the ‘friendship’ of my Medjugorje’friends’ turned into hatered abd insults(good fruits?)
mark waterinckx retired professor chemistry belgium
So, has anyone heard anything of late on this “decision?” I was hoping for it to be rendered in November. How long, Lord??? :/
[[[Susie -- click on the " Medjugoje " category of this blog -- Father G ]]]